Thanks.
M1 Carbine questions
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Neot
Ultimate Member
The IRCO sounds like a Type III adjustable sight. They were put on after WW2.
The mag catch is either a Type III or Type IV and is post war as well. They were used for the 30rd magazines. Bayonet Lugged Barrel bands are all Type III and are post war (and supposedly the best ones as far as accuracy is concerned). If the safety is a swing type instead of a push button than it is post war as well. The P on the stock was put on there during a rebuild at an arsenal, the one on the barrel was put there during production. As far as when it was made, ball park would be February-March 1944.
Hope this helps ya out some.
The mag catch is either a Type III or Type IV and is post war as well. They were used for the 30rd magazines. Bayonet Lugged Barrel bands are all Type III and are post war (and supposedly the best ones as far as accuracy is concerned). If the safety is a swing type instead of a push button than it is post war as well. The P on the stock was put on there during a rebuild at an arsenal, the one on the barrel was put there during production. As far as when it was made, ball park would be February-March 1944.
Hope this helps ya out some.
c&rdaze
Active Member
It seems that I missed this thread until today. There has already been a lot of good info and suggestions offered. I will try to add a few insights.
The M-1 Carbine was the single most produced arm of the WWll. Something over six million (as compared to the ~5 mil Garands). There were about ten contractors making these. The value of one is somewhat dependent on which company made it because of name (Winchester) or numbers produced (Rock-Ola, low). The picture shown, as many have pointed out, has several rebuild parts showing. However, all carbines were manufactured between June, 1942 and August, 1945. They continued to be used by US and Allied forces well past Vietnam era. Not all contractors made there own barrels and there was some additional swapping of parts among them to speed production, as all parts were interchangeable. Outside contractors also produced barrels and other parts, so if you happen to have say an IBM with non-IBM parts, it doesn't mean that their wrong. Also, GI cleaning parties, I'm told, had all the parts go in a bucket and put back together asa they were pulled out. How inconsiderate of those GIs for not watching out for for collectors when they were fighting a war.
Get a good reference book, if really interested. I have the Craig Riesch book but 'War Baby' by Larry Ruth is the 'Bible'.
Almost all Carbines were rebuilt/upgraded during or after WWll and on into their future use. This was done mostly by the military and I consider them a piece of history as such. Others will say 'Pooh, pooh'. The CMP has been the source of most of the recent carbines to be made available on the market. The current ones are 'returns' from Countries that were loaned them after WWll. There has been talk of some (plus Garands) coming in from Korea outside of the CMP but they may be in poor condition. Also, let it be known that after WWll, several private companies used surplus parts to build Carbines (and later manufactured parts); these are the Universal and others. Their quality can be hit or miss.
The most common (number wise) carbines were Inlands @ 2.6 mil (and the only ones that are REAL paratrooper models). Winchester was next @ 828k Rock-Ola was the last of the true manufactors @ 228k. The odd ball in this is Irwin-Pedersen, who had a contract but couldn't get it right and assemblied ~3,500 carbines but none were accepted by the Gov. Find one of these and you'll be a rich person.
In 2003, I was very fortunate to get three from the CMP when they were reducing their stock. I asked for different manufacturers and got Winchester, Underwood and Standard Products. All had the later sights and safety but had Type 1 barrel bands. One had a flat bolt. The Winchester was one of the so-called 'white bag' carbines. So named because they had been sealed in a VCI coated plastic bag for storage. Mine was dated as March 1953 storage and I got it in March 2003, a cool 50 years. And yes, I saved the bag!
Interesting side note: If you go to the Iwo Jima memorial, you will note that they are shown with the Type lll bayonet barrel band. Unfortunately, that barrel band was not issued at the time of the battle but was in common use by the time the model for the memorial was developed. I never knew the difference until I had my own and learned more about them.
Good luck with this. They are really, really fun to shoot. Some will say that they are underpowered for a rifle but they were never intended as a battle rifle, just a better arm that a handgun. They seemed to have worked OK for Audie Murphy.
The M-1 Carbine was the single most produced arm of the WWll. Something over six million (as compared to the ~5 mil Garands). There were about ten contractors making these. The value of one is somewhat dependent on which company made it because of name (Winchester) or numbers produced (Rock-Ola, low). The picture shown, as many have pointed out, has several rebuild parts showing. However, all carbines were manufactured between June, 1942 and August, 1945. They continued to be used by US and Allied forces well past Vietnam era. Not all contractors made there own barrels and there was some additional swapping of parts among them to speed production, as all parts were interchangeable. Outside contractors also produced barrels and other parts, so if you happen to have say an IBM with non-IBM parts, it doesn't mean that their wrong. Also, GI cleaning parties, I'm told, had all the parts go in a bucket and put back together asa they were pulled out. How inconsiderate of those GIs for not watching out for for collectors when they were fighting a war.
Get a good reference book, if really interested. I have the Craig Riesch book but 'War Baby' by Larry Ruth is the 'Bible'.Almost all Carbines were rebuilt/upgraded during or after WWll and on into their future use. This was done mostly by the military and I consider them a piece of history as such. Others will say 'Pooh, pooh'. The CMP has been the source of most of the recent carbines to be made available on the market. The current ones are 'returns' from Countries that were loaned them after WWll. There has been talk of some (plus Garands) coming in from Korea outside of the CMP but they may be in poor condition. Also, let it be known that after WWll, several private companies used surplus parts to build Carbines (and later manufactured parts); these are the Universal and others. Their quality can be hit or miss.
The most common (number wise) carbines were Inlands @ 2.6 mil (and the only ones that are REAL paratrooper models). Winchester was next @ 828k Rock-Ola was the last of the true manufactors @ 228k. The odd ball in this is Irwin-Pedersen, who had a contract but couldn't get it right and assemblied ~3,500 carbines but none were accepted by the Gov. Find one of these and you'll be a rich person.
In 2003, I was very fortunate to get three from the CMP when they were reducing their stock. I asked for different manufacturers and got Winchester, Underwood and Standard Products. All had the later sights and safety but had Type 1 barrel bands. One had a flat bolt. The Winchester was one of the so-called 'white bag' carbines. So named because they had been sealed in a VCI coated plastic bag for storage. Mine was dated as March 1953 storage and I got it in March 2003, a cool 50 years. And yes, I saved the bag!
Interesting side note: If you go to the Iwo Jima memorial, you will note that they are shown with the Type lll bayonet barrel band. Unfortunately, that barrel band was not issued at the time of the battle but was in common use by the time the model for the memorial was developed. I never knew the difference until I had my own and learned more about them.
Good luck with this. They are really, really fun to shoot. Some will say that they are underpowered for a rifle but they were never intended as a battle rifle, just a better arm that a handgun. They seemed to have worked OK for Audie Murphy.
c&rdaze
Active Member
Darn, I just realized that the google-fu has failed the master! 
PresentArms
Ultimate Member
Thanks guys, great info.
So what do you guys think is a fair price for my friend to ask for this rifle?
So what do you guys think is a fair price for my friend to ask for this rifle?
Depends how fast he wants to move it.
Throw it out there at $700 and see who bites
Neot
Ultimate Member
Honestly I have a very similar one and got it from the CMP for around 600. Depends on if it has import marks, finish remaining, etc
If you want a Underwood from the CMP the "Rack Grade" are crap with pitted bores .
The "Service Grade" Underwood carbines are "SOLD OUT - not accepting orders"
Threeband
The M1 Does My Talking
I got a nice Inland rack grade last year- worn finish and a birchwood potbelly stock, but a decent shooter. ( Photo after refinishing birch stock to match walnut handguard. ) You do take your chances though, which is why the CMP prices should establish the low end of the range.
With the CMP, you jump through the hoops, get your qualifying paperwork in order (and many people are totally overwhelmed by the process), then wait and wait and wait for a sight-unseen rifle you have no opportunity to examine before purchase. Or you take a couple days off work and drive through the night hundreds of miles to Darkest Ohio or Sultry Alabam' to pick your own (how much does that drive cost?). So that CMP price better be a good deal.
Novus's friend's carbine is available here and now. It can be examined before purchase. You can pick it up, squint down the bore, scrutinize it for dings or flaws, maybe even test fire it. Then you can buy it face-to-face and take it straight home. That is worth a premium over CMP prices.
The Underwood Service Grades were going for $565, but now they're sold out. $700 seems a perfectly reasonable asking price for that one.
My Rack Grade Inland
With the CMP, you jump through the hoops, get your qualifying paperwork in order (and many people are totally overwhelmed by the process), then wait and wait and wait for a sight-unseen rifle you have no opportunity to examine before purchase. Or you take a couple days off work and drive through the night hundreds of miles to Darkest Ohio or Sultry Alabam' to pick your own (how much does that drive cost?). So that CMP price better be a good deal.
Novus's friend's carbine is available here and now. It can be examined before purchase. You can pick it up, squint down the bore, scrutinize it for dings or flaws, maybe even test fire it. Then you can buy it face-to-face and take it straight home. That is worth a premium over CMP prices.
The Underwood Service Grades were going for $565, but now they're sold out. $700 seems a perfectly reasonable asking price for that one.
My Rack Grade Inland
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Depends how fast he wants to move it.
Throw it out there at $700 and see who bites
$650 OBO....
Neot
Ultimate Member
Oh I know, I have mine already
The Service Grade ones are the best deal going on there. I have a National Postal Meter, Underwood and Standard Products carbine. The NPM is an Austrian return, the Underwood has an M2 stock on it and the SP has type III low wood. All of them are in great shape overall.Sell fast prices are dropping, I would say $500 is fair for a quick sale (there were a few floating around the Howard Gunshow for that, decent guns too) and $700 for a "hold out" of course that all depends on what it muzzle gauges at.
Look on the receiver to see if it has a letter code just behind the serial, underwood used a lot of subcontractors and some of them were quite rare. For example mine is a Singer "B" with I think about 30k made.
Look on the receiver to see if it has a letter code just behind the serial, underwood used a lot of subcontractors and some of them were quite rare. For example mine is a Singer "B" with I think about 30k made.
PresentArms
Ultimate Member
M1 Carbine Production Inland Manufacturing Division, G.M.C...... 2,632,097 43.0%
Winchester Repeating Arms Co................ 828,059 13.5%
Underwood-Elliot-Fisher Co.................. 545,616 8.9%
Saginaw Steering Gear Div., G.M.C........... 517,212 8.5%
National Postal Meter Co.................... 413,017 6.8%
Quality Hardware & Machine Co............... 359,666 5.9%
International Business Machines Corp (IBM).. 346,500 5.7%
Standard Products Co........................ 247,160 4.0%
Rock-Ola Co................................. 228,500 3.7%
---------
Total: 6,221,220
We have three ibm rackers received in the last three weeks that would not agree with that description at all.
Great bores (MW<2, however 1 counterbored)
Decent metal, good mix of early parts, one flip safety, one AO subcontract receiver.
All had been refinished at one point or another and one stock set was absolute trash.
Neot
Ultimate Member
I agree with Drmsparks, generally all the reports I've heard of the rack grades have been pretty good. Seems like most of them just have garbage stocks to them so thats why they are in that catagory.
Drmsparks, you're on the CMP forums too aren't ya? Thought I saw you post on there before too.
Drmsparks, you're on the CMP forums too aren't ya? Thought I saw you post on there before too.
Wow I disagree with all of the above, every CMP rack grade I have seen has been in very good working order usually per their website (and observations with a muzzle gauge) it is a matter of muzzle wear. Most I have seen have been aroudn 3 to 3.5 still servicable but definately not pristine, usually some nicks and dings near the crown but at the velocity that .30 carbine is running at really not a big deal (infact one of my best shooters has the biggest nick). I have seen a few with pitting on the receiver but functional. Most service grants around 2.
Frankly I have never seen a pitted M1 carbine bore...........
Needless to say there are so many good shootable carbines floating around.
One couterbored and one with a stock set that is "absolute trash ".
Ok.... why is that not with that description at all of "crap"?
From the CMP web site on rack grade carbines : "Bores will have some heavy pitting and exterior finish may show significant wear and some surface pitting. "
Don't get me wrong I have received lots of nice stuff from the CMP
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