Go Back   Maryland Shooters > The Arsenal > NFA/Class 3/Title II

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 16th, 2017, 07:49 PM #21
ivzarleinad ivzarleinad is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 17
ivzarleinad ivzarleinad is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 17
I'm sorry - maybe this is a silly question but what is an IP?
ivzarleinad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2017, 07:59 PM #22
kraftyone's Avatar
kraftyone kraftyone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 797
Images: 3
kraftyone kraftyone is offline
Member
kraftyone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 797
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivzarleinad View Post
I'm sorry - maybe this is a silly question but what is an IP?


Industry Partners they pay money to keep this site running and promote there businesses
kraftyone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2017, 09:57 PM #23
outrider58's Avatar
outrider58 outrider58 is offline
Closet Denizen
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Anywhere Merryland
Posts: 19,183
outrider58 outrider58 is offline
Closet Denizen
outrider58's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Anywhere Merryland
Posts: 19,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivzarleinad View Post
I'm sorry - maybe this is a silly question but what is an IP?
Here you go new guy(gal)...

https://www.mdshooters.com/forumdisplay.php?f=106
__________________
"
...I didn't shoot him that hard." Dirty Harry

"We keep you alive to serve this ship...row well and live" Quintus Arius
outrider58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2017, 11:46 PM #24
Rack&Roll's Avatar
Rack&Roll Rack&Roll is offline
Domestic Tourist
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Bunkerville, MD
Posts: 14,897
Send a message via AIM to Rack&Roll
Rack&Roll Rack&Roll is offline
Domestic Tourist
Rack&Roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Bunkerville, MD
Posts: 14,897
Send a message via AIM to Rack&Roll
Quote:
Originally Posted by outrider58 View Post

That "new guy", is a "year older" than you--a proud 13-er.
Rack&Roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 17th, 2017, 02:08 AM #25
Pinecone Pinecone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14,824
Pinecone Pinecone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14,824
FYI, the PS90 is on the handgun roster.

And, as I understand, some have been sold as pistols post 2013.

And yes, MD Not Disapproved the 77r.
Pinecone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 17th, 2017, 04:52 AM #26
erwos's Avatar
erwos erwos is online now
Jew with a Gun
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 8,935
erwos erwos is online now
Jew with a Gun
erwos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 8,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone View Post
FYI, the PS90 is on the handgun roster.

And, as I understand, some have been sold as pistols post 2013.

And yes, MD Not Disapproved the 77r.
That's because the PS90s on the roster were SBRs back when the MSP decided they needed to be on the roster. No one's selling them as real pistols.
__________________
The Hebrew Hammer Blog: Israeli guns and accessories!

Things I love: bullpups, .458 SOCOM, giving my opinion
Things I hate: .40S&W, KeyMod, AR pistols with buffer tubes, anything with an arm brace
erwos is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 17th, 2017, 06:45 AM #27
ivzarleinad ivzarleinad is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 17
ivzarleinad ivzarleinad is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 17
Even though the MD law still considers SBRs "handguns" and they should be legal, the MSP has stated that is not their opinion and all SBRs have to be 29" regardless of whether they are on the registry. http://mdsp.maryland.gov/Document%20...ong%20Guns.pdf
ivzarleinad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 17th, 2017, 07:16 AM #28
Alphabrew's Avatar
Alphabrew Alphabrew is offline
ZFG
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Where the men are men and the sheep are scared. Woodbine!
Posts: 15,905
Alphabrew Alphabrew is offline
ZFG
Alphabrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Where the men are men and the sheep are scared. Woodbine!
Posts: 15,905
__________________
<3 TRUMP <3

CNN is ISIS
Alphabrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2017, 03:31 AM #29
Pinecone Pinecone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14,824
Pinecone Pinecone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by erwos View Post
That's because the PS90s on the roster were SBRs back when the MSP decided they needed to be on the roster. No one's selling them as real pistols.
NO ONE?????

Are you SURE?

Because you are incorrect.

And as I stated, MSP Not Disapproved the 77r.
Pinecone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2017, 08:04 AM #30
tc617's Avatar
tc617 tc617 is offline
USN Sub Vet
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dentsville, Maryland
Posts: 2,203
Images: 5
tc617 tc617 is offline
USN Sub Vet
tc617's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dentsville, Maryland
Posts: 2,203
Images: 5
Interesting, so it has two butt stocks; The original and the second folding stock which makes it Maryland legal.

I'm sure it won't be long before some schmuck writes a letter asking the MSP/ATF if shouldering this firearm with the stock folded; thus in a <29" OAL configuration, does that reclassify the firearm as a banned Maryland assault weapon. I'm sure Frosh-hole will happily respond with a vague and confusing opinion.
__________________
Firearms Safety Act of 2013
Targeting guns not used in crimes
Owned by people that are not criminals
tc617 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2017, 07:02 PM #31
ivzarleinad ivzarleinad is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 17
ivzarleinad ivzarleinad is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by tc617 View Post
Interesting, so it has two butt stocks; The original and the second folding stock which makes it Maryland legal.

I'm sure it won't be long before some schmuck writes a letter asking the MSP/ATF if shouldering this firearm with the stock folded; thus in a <29" OAL configuration, does that reclassify the firearm as a banned Maryland assault weapon. I'm sure Frosh-hole will happily respond with a vague and confusing opinion.
This is how I would explain it: The original stock was removed. It was replaced with not two stocks but ONE stock which is "adjustable" or folding. The fact that the weapon can be fired while folded does not make it two different stocks. It is one piece, and the OAL is measured when fully extended. It remains an SBR so it can be shouldered without a problem regardless of the current position of the folding stock.

I did talk to both the MSP and ATF extensively and they confirmed that as long as this new stock itself is not removed and replaced with something else, it does not matter whether it is folded or unfolded because it remains the same long stock (29" OAL).

Folding stocks are treated by both the ATF and MSP the same as collapsible stocks. If you have a collapsible stock on your AR that makes it 27" when collapsed but 29" when extended, it is not banned in Maryland since it can be extended to 29." The same is true for folding stocks.
ivzarleinad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2017, 09:09 PM #32
erwos's Avatar
erwos erwos is online now
Jew with a Gun
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 8,935
erwos erwos is online now
Jew with a Gun
erwos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 8,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone View Post
NO ONE?????

Are you SURE?

Because you are incorrect.

And as I stated, MSP Not Disapproved the 77r.
I'd like to see a picture of this mythical PS90 pistol. Because, no, I still don't believe it.
__________________
The Hebrew Hammer Blog: Israeli guns and accessories!

Things I love: bullpups, .458 SOCOM, giving my opinion
Things I hate: .40S&W, KeyMod, AR pistols with buffer tubes, anything with an arm brace
erwos is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2017, 10:27 PM #33
BLACKTALON's Avatar
BLACKTALON BLACKTALON is offline
Ammo is like food
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: severna park
Posts: 3,227
BLACKTALON BLACKTALON is offline
Ammo is like food
BLACKTALON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: severna park
Posts: 3,227
A ps90 pistol is not a thing or I would have one. Duffys sells md model ps90 I believe they are converted to order tho so you might have to wait to get one
__________________
WTS: AK-74 plum mags/7.62 Bakelite
BLACKTALON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2017, 11:11 PM #34
ivzarleinad ivzarleinad is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 17
ivzarleinad ivzarleinad is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by erwos View Post
I'd like to see a picture of this mythical PS90 pistol. Because, no, I still don't believe it.
I agree. I tried very hard to get my PS90 to qualify as a pistol under Maryland law and still be an SBR for federal purposes. However the ATF did not agree with my reasoning. This is what they sent me:

"Please verify overall length as measured from tip of muzzle to rear of fully extended stock. Per Maryland state law, short barrel rifles must have a minimum length of 29 inches."

I replied with detailed info explaining why I would be compliant with federal and state law, relying on a Maryland police advisory (LD-FRS-14-002). The ATF responded with:

"Guidelines from MD State Police dated May 2014. Per updated MD Public Safety Code 5-401, effective Oct 1, 2015, a short-barreled rifle is not considered a handgun."

Then I replied:

A. The overall length of the firearm applied for will indeed be 19.9 inches as stated on the application. However, this is in compliance with Maryland State law, as I will explain below.

B. MD Public Safety Code 5-401 does say that the word “handgun” does not include a short-barreled rifle, but only for the purposes of that subtitle. That subtitle deals with the handgun roster and review board, and stipulates that no handgun may be purchased which is not on the roster. As previously communicated, the PS90 is in fact on the handgun roster, which does make it a handgun per Maryland state law. However, this section is no longer relevant since short barreled rifles are not covered by that subtitle any longer.

C. Regardless, elsewhere in the Maryland code, short-barreled rifles approved by the ATF are still considered “handguns” as a general rule. Two examples are:
1. MD Criminal Law 4-201(c)(2), still in effect: “Handgun” includes a short-barreled shotgun and a short-barreled rifle.
2. MD Public Safety 5-101(n)(1), still in effect: “Handgun” means a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

D. Maryland State Police Advisory LD-FRS-14-002, which is dated May 2, 2014 and which I previously sent to you is still in effect (except for Section VI, which has been rescinded and SBRs are no longer required to be on the roster).

E. As my previous letter states, the police advisory, along with Maryland state law, makes it clear that, as long as the ATF approves my Form 1, the firearm will be legal in Maryland and considered a handgun, since the barrel will be less than 16 inches.


In summary, Maryland law allows the possession and transfer of PS90s that comply with Federal short-barreled rifle regulations (approved Form 1) as well as have a barrel length of less than 16 inches so as to comply with Maryland Handgun regulations. Therefore, upon approval of my Form 1 application, I will be compliant with both Federal and Maryland State law.


- - - - - -

Even after all that, the ATF came back and said they would only approve the SBR if the overall length could be 29." That is why I had the stock custom made. It is currently the only way to legally have a PS90 SBR in Maryland, as far as I can tell. The ATF acknowledged that the Maryland law is confusing, but said that short of a letter from the Maryland Attorney General on the issue (good luck with that), they could not approve an SBR in Maryland with an OAL less than 29."

Once I amended the Form 1 to show it would be 29" OAL with the new stock, the ATF approved the Form 1. My SBR PS90 now satisfies both Maryland law and federal law.

I apologize for the length of my post, but there were a lot of details to get in there. Hopefully it all makes sense.
ivzarleinad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2017, 03:52 AM #35
Pinecone Pinecone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14,824
Pinecone Pinecone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14,824
You were trying to get it approved as an SBR. And BATF follows MSP "rules" that it has to be 29"

If it is sold as a pistol, not SBR, then there is no minimum length.

Hmm, I wonder if a PS90 that was sold and approved (Not Disapproved) by MSP can have the short barrel installed without SBR paperwork, as it is not a rifle.

You can believe what you want to believe, but it has been done. It was even mentioned in a thread on MDS.

I am not going to show you a copy of the 77r, for obvious reasons. But I know it was done, and have held the firearm.

BTW, there are buttstock extensions that take about 1 minute to install that make the PS90 with long barrel, MD legal as a rifle.

http://damageindustriesllc.com/store...ry&path=142_70
Pinecone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2017, 06:22 AM #36
erwos's Avatar
erwos erwos is online now
Jew with a Gun
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 8,935
erwos erwos is online now
Jew with a Gun
erwos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 8,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone View Post
If it is sold as a pistol, not SBR, then there is no minimum length.

Hmm, I wonder if a PS90 that was sold and approved (Not Disapproved) by MSP can have the short barrel installed without SBR paperwork, as it is not a rifle.

You can believe what you want to believe, but it has been done. It was even mentioned in a thread on MDS.

I am not going to show you a copy of the 77r, for obvious reasons. But I know it was done, and have held the firearm.
I recall that thread, now that you bring it up. You would be going to federal jail if you tried to put a short barrel on a PS90 without a stamp, regardless of what the state of MD would do. And, bluntly, I think you'd be fined or going to jail in MD if you sold a factory PS90 with a 16" barrel to someone and the MSP noticed you did so. It has a stock. It has a 16"barrel. It's a rifle.

Anybody can slip something past the MSP once. That doesn't make it precedent, that makes it "lucky". The irony here is that I actually agree the MSP is misinterpreting the law, and that the OAL test shouldn't apply to SBRs, and that they should have to have a 77r to transfer. But that is just not how the state is currently interpreting things.
__________________
The Hebrew Hammer Blog: Israeli guns and accessories!

Things I love: bullpups, .458 SOCOM, giving my opinion
Things I hate: .40S&W, KeyMod, AR pistols with buffer tubes, anything with an arm brace
erwos is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2017, 09:32 AM #37
ivzarleinad ivzarleinad is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 17
ivzarleinad ivzarleinad is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by erwos View Post
I recall that thread, now that you bring it up. You would be going to federal jail if you tried to put a short barrel on a PS90 without a stamp, regardless of what the state of MD would do. And, bluntly, I think you'd be fined or going to jail in MD if you sold a factory PS90 with a 16" barrel to someone and the MSP noticed you did so. It has a stock. It has a 16"barrel. It's a rifle.

Anybody can slip something past the MSP once. That doesn't make it precedent, that makes it "lucky". The irony here is that I actually agree the MSP is misinterpreting the law, and that the OAL test shouldn't apply to SBRs, and that they should have to have a 77r to transfer. But that is just not how the state is currently interpreting things.
Well spoken. I also agree that the interpretation of Maryland law is wrong, but it is the MSP who enforce the law so we need to follow their interpretation. Even if you got the 77r approved, if it is truly a "handgun" under Maryland law and you are also claiming it is a "handgun" under Federal law, you would then not be able to shoulder it legally. Since it is impossible to remove the stock altogether and have the firearm function, it would always have a stock and be considered by the ATF to be an SBR with or without Form 1 approval (obviously it needs Form 1 approval to be legal). The ATF knows all this and they will not approve any SBR unless it also meets Maryland's OAL requirements. Believe me, I tried.

The good news in all this is, that is is still possible to have a regular PS90 with a buttplate extension, as Pinecone mentioned, and Nick at Promoted Pawn (who made my custom underfolder) also sells buttplate extensions which I highly recommend. http://www.promotedpawn.com/ps90prod...ber-butt-plate

He will also be putting the custom underfolder up on his website soon at a much lower price than I had to pay (because I paid for the design etc. too) but you can also email him and ask for that if you guys want to SBR your PS90s in Maryland too.
ivzarleinad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2017, 01:37 AM #38
Pinecone Pinecone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14,824
Pinecone Pinecone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14,824
As long as the PS90 sold as a handgun has the 16 inch barrel on it, you can shoulder it, as it is not an SBR.

Only if you put the short barrel on it and shouldered it.

And if a stock extension is put on, it make it a MD legal rifle, and then taken off, it does back to being a pistol. As it started as a pistol.

If this one were to be sold, it would have to be sold with a 77r, as it is a handgun.

Sometimes MSP shoots itself in its foot.
Pinecone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2017, 06:56 AM #39
Biggfoot44 Biggfoot44 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13,160
Biggfoot44 Biggfoot44 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13,160
Member ivzarlienad who asked about "IP" is a June 2017 member, not a '13'er.

BUT it has been a while since the acronym list started by SNI has been brought up. Perhaps a less Luddite person could do a link to it?
Biggfoot44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 2nd, 2017, 08:39 AM #40
carpecervisi carpecervisi is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 229
carpecervisi carpecervisi is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 229
Damn you ivzarleinad! Your post finally made me get off the fence and pick up a PS90. Got a pretty good one off GunBroker and have contacted Nick about getting a stock.

Thanks man.
-chad

PS- If anyone is looking for a used PS90, Nicole at TMG has an FDE in great shape plus several hundred rounds of ammo at a great price. Wish I would have known before picking mine up.

carpecervisi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Home Page > Forum List > The Arsenal > NFA/Class 3/Title II

Tags
nfa, p90, ps90, sbr


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
2017, Congregate Media, LP Privacy Policy Terms of Service