SBR Questions - Post Oct. 1

callidus · Dec 6, 2013

I had three questions concerning SBRs - I've seen different parts of them talked about throughout the forums but I haven't seen any definitive answers (or perhaps I missed them).

Are SBRs considered handguns, and thus legal in a post-SB281 MD?
If I had a pre-October 1 AR-15 lower, you can purchase a NFA upper under 16", as long as you do the federal paperwork and send a copy to the CLEO?
If I wanted to purchase an AK-style SBR (a shiny new Krinkov or Draco), would that be legal, and how so?

Any help would be appreciated. My guess, based off of what I've read so far, is that SBRs are still legal, SBR'ing a pre-SB281 lower is not an issue (with the paperwork approved), but I have no clue on #3. Hopefully somebody wiser than myself has some insight

jkeys · Dec 6, 2013

I'd like to add a #4:

4. Is it legal to sell a pre-SB281 SBR (AK47 or AR15)?

TacticalSasquach · Dec 6, 2013

The way I interpret the law a 29 inch or greater overall length sbr is fine.

I dont see how md can call a sbr a pistol, because if it has a stock it is designed to be shouldered, a handgun is designed to be shot with one hand. Federal law is pretty clear on this.

Also the way I see it , nfa sbr should not have to comply as an assault weapon because it is a title 2 firearm and the bill does not specify them.

SneakySh0rty · Dec 6, 2013

callidus said:
I had three questions concerning SBRs - I've seen different parts of them talked about throughout the forums but I haven't seen any definitive answers (or perhaps I missed them).

Are SBRs considered handguns, and thus legal in a post-SB281 MD?

If I had a pre-October 1 AR-15 lower, you can purchase a NFA upper under 16", as long as you do the federal paperwork and send a copy to the CLEO?

If I wanted to purchase an AK-style SBR (a shiny new Krinkov or Draco), would that be legal, and how so?

Any help would be appreciated. My guess, based off of what I've read so far, is that SBRs are still legal, SBR'ing a pre-SB281 lower is not an issue (with the paperwork approved), but I have no clue on #3. Hopefully somebody wiser than myself has some insight

About SB281: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=109281

search to your hearts conent in the NFA section: http://www.mdshooters.com/forumdisplay.php?f=105

Very informative, but still many unanswered questions.

Kingjamez · Dec 6, 2013

No one knows any of the answers to those questions definitively.

-Jim

Pinecone · Dec 7, 2013

TacticalSasquach said:
I dont see how md can call a sbr a pistol, because if it has a stock it is designed to be shouldered, a handgun is designed to be shot with one hand. Federal law is pretty clear on this.

Because MD law says that any firearm with a barrel of less than 16" is a handgun.

And this is GOOD for us.

dblas · Dec 7, 2013

callidus said:
I had three questions concerning SBRs - I've seen different parts of them talked about throughout the forums but I haven't seen any definitive answers (or perhaps I missed them).

1. Are SBRs considered handguns, and thus legal in a post-SB281 MD?

SBRs are legal in MD so long as they comply with the new 29" requirement. How they are classified has no affect on the issue.

callidus said:
2. If I had a pre-October 1 AR-15 lower, you can purchase a NFA upper under 16", as long as you do the federal paperwork and send a copy to the CLEO?

Yes, you can either form 1 (build your own) or form 4 (purchase an SBR upper) for a lower owned pre 10.1.13.

callidus said:
3. If I wanted to purchase an AK-style SBR (a shiny new Krinkov or Draco), would that be legal, and how so?

Yes, form 4.

callidus said:
Any help would be appreciated. My guess, based off of what I've read so far, is that SBRs are still legal, SBR'ing a pre-SB281 lower is not an issue (with the paperwork approved), but I have no clue on #3. Hopefully somebody wiser than myself has some insight

dblas · Dec 7, 2013

jkeys said:
I'd like to add a #4:

4. Is it legal to sell a pre-SB281 SBR (AK47 or AR15)?

Yes, form 4.

NateIU10 · Dec 7, 2013

Kingjamez said:
No one knows any of the answers to those questions definitively.

-Jim

Exactly.

TacticalSasquach said:
I dont see how md can call a sbr a pistol, because if it has a stock it is designed to be shouldered, a handgun is designed to be shot with one hand. Federal law is pretty clear on this.

MD law is written by the legislature. They can decide how state law is applied. If they want to say that a the definition of a handgun includes pink elephants, pink elephants could only be bought on a 77r. They include an SBR in the definition of handgun. It's as simple as that.

dblas said:
SBRs are legal in MD so long as they comply with the new 29" requirement. How they are classified has no affect on the issue.

The 29" requirement only applies to semiautomatic centerfire rifles, and SBRs are included in the definition of handgun (which states handgun does NOT include shotguns and rifles.) The 29" portion of the copycat test does not apply.

I have thoughts on the AK SBR, but am not going to put that out just yet.

TacticalSasquach · Dec 7, 2013

Pinecone said:
Because MD law says that any firearm with a barrel of less than 16" is a handgun.

And this is GOOD for us.

Please tell me why this is good. Pm if neccesary

NateIU10 · Dec 7, 2013

TacticalSasquach said:
Please tell me why this is good. Pm if neccesary

The copycat test only applies to semiautomatic centerfire rifles. So being defined as a handgun is good for us.

dblas · Dec 7, 2013

NateIU10 said:
The copycat test only applies to semiautomatic centerfire rifles. So being defined as a handgun is good for us.

While they are treated has handguns, they are qualified as exactly what they are, centerfire semi-automatic rifles. If they were classified as handguns, then they would be on the handgun roster for approval of sale in MD.

Please show us, where they exist on the on the handgun roster listing for approved sale?

Pinecone · Dec 8, 2013

As you are finding out, the law is a mess.

The law says that copy cat test applies to center fire semi auto rifles.

(E) (1) “COPYCAT WEAPON” MEANS:

(I) A SEMIAUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE RIFLE THAT CAN ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE AND ...

(III) A SEMIAUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE RIFLE THAT HAS AN OVERALL LENGTH OF LESS THAN 30 29 INCHES;

The law says that short barrel rifles and short barrel shotguns are handguns.

(2) “Handgun” includes a short–barreled shotgun and a short–barreled rifle.

No, they are not on the roster, and never have been.

And BTW, the legislature does not determine how the laws are interpreted/enforced. That is up to the executive and judicial branches (MSP and courts).

Shane762 · Dec 8, 2013

Pinecone said:
As you are finding out, the law is a mess.

The law says that copy cat test applies to center fire semi auto rifles.

The law says that short barrel rifles and short barrel shotguns are handguns.

No, they are not on the roster, and never have been.

And BTW, the legislature does not determine how the laws are interpreted/enforced. That is up to the executive and judicial branches (MSP and courts).

This is what I've read several times in the many, many discussions here but I'm still wondering how it's going to work in practice. If an SBR is a handgun does that mean a rifle with a 16" barrel that is named on the ban list (let's say a Auto Ordnance Tommy Gun) is verbotten but the same firearm with a 10" barrel could be legally purchased?

FrankOceanXray · Dec 8, 2013

SBR a PS90 owned prior to OCT1?

dblas · Dec 8, 2013

Shane762 said:
This is what I've read several times in the many, many discussions here but I'm still wondering how it's going to work in practice. If an SBR is a handgun does that mean a rifle with a 16" barrel that is named on the ban list (let's say a Auto Ordnance Tommy Gun) is verbotten but the same firearm with a 10" barrel could be legally purchased?

Nope, because it is NOT a handgun. It is on the banned list and is banned period, regardless of length.

Try this, find a friend that has an SBR and take it to the firearms licensing division of MSP and ask them what it is. They will tell you it is a rifle, not a handgun.

SBRs and SBSs are not treated like a handgun in Maryland, they are not on the handgun roster as a permitted item to purchase as a handgun. They are treated the same as their 16"+ relatives as rifles and shotguns and classified as such.

NateIU10 · Dec 8, 2013

dblas said:
Nope, because it is NOT a handgun. It is on the banned list and is banned period, regardless of length.

Try this, find a friend that has an SBR and take it to the firearms licensing division of MSP and ask them what it is. They will tell you it is a rifle, not a handgun.

SBRs and SBSs are not treated like a handgun in Maryland, they are not on the handgun roster as a permitted item to purchase as a handgun. They are treated the same as their 16"+ relatives as rifles and shotguns and classified as such.

I disagree with pretty much everything you are stating. Try this. It is legal to build a handgun not on the roster, correct? Under md law, an SBR is a handgun. That is not debatable, it is specifically included in the definition. So if you form 1 an SBR, it does not have to be on the roster (defeating that portion of your argument. I also fail to see why you think a list of banned Assault Long Guns bans anthing except long guns.

The MSP has been treating federal registration as preempting/superceding MD handgun law as applied to SBRs. They are the agency tasked with implementation and rulemaking as to the law, and that is what they have done. Individual troopers are not the people to ask legal questions of.

fabsroman · Dec 8, 2013

dblas said:
Nope, because it is NOT a handgun. It is on the banned list and is banned period, regardless of length.

Try this, find a friend that has an SBR and take it to the firearms licensing division of MSP and ask them what it is. They will tell you it is a rifle, not a handgun.

SBRs and SBSs are not treated like a handgun in Maryland, they are not on the handgun roster as a permitted item to purchase as a handgun. They are treated the same as their 16"+ relatives as rifles and shotguns and classified as such.

I actually looked into this slightly for about a week. Some variant of the AR pistol is on the handgun roster, but it is restricted and only available for military and law enforcement sale (i.e., no civilian sales).

Engage in Rockville tried to get an AR pistol put on the handgun roster but it was denied.

I'd be interested in knowing whether anybody has bought a AR or AK SBR since October 1, 2013 and how it was handled.

dblas · Dec 8, 2013

NateIU10 said:
I disagree with pretty much everything you are stating. Try this. It is legal to build a handgun not on the roster, correct? Under md law, an SBR is a handgun. That is not debatable, it is specifically included in the definition. So if you form 1 an SBR, it does not have to be on the roster (defeating that portion of your argument. I also fail to see why you think a list of banned Assault Long Guns bans anthing except long guns.

The MSP has been treating federal registration as preempting/superceding MD handgun law as applied to SBRs. They are the agency tasked with implementation and rulemaking as to the law, and that is what they have done. Individual troopers are not the people to ask legal questions of.

While I agree with you that you can build one on a form one, if you purchase one on a form 4, it is listed as a rifle, not a handgun. Also, none of the form 4 SBRs or SBSs are on the handgun roster. So while we agree that by definition (less than 16") they are handguns, the state of Maryland does not treat them as such.

We agree, across the board, the state, however, does not agree with us and calls them what they are, rifles.

I don't think the banned list bans anything but long guns, as I stated above, if the overall length of the rifle (SBR) is less than 29" then as a copycat, it is banned.

Also please re-read what I said above, as I directed you to the Licensing division, not some random MSP officer. The licensing division is the office tasked with implementations and rule making when it comes to the law regarding firearms.

SneakySh0rty · Dec 8, 2013

Think this should be spread around so more people see this.
Thank Engage for this:
https://www.mdsp.org/Organization/S...e/HandgunRoster/HandgunModels.aspx?manu=22118

SBR Questions - Post Oct. 1

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Active Member

Active Member

Member

Active Member

Gun Builder

Ultimate Member

Past President, MSI

Past President, MSI

Ultimate Member

Member

Ultimate Member

Past President, MSI

Ultimate Member

Active Member

Ultimate Member

Past President, MSI

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

Past President, MSI

Active Member

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics