Carbines-My Next Ass Hat question

What I think I know. Ok, so, a carbine is a short type of rifle. They often fire at a lower velocity but often the same ammo? Being shorted than a long rifle I can see the use in urban/close quarters confrontation.

What are the other pros and cons of this style of firearm. I also see them often with a non trigger hand handle + stock....obviously this is different than say a long rifle. Purpose?

Basically, my questions is, tell me everything about carbines.

As usual, your patience and tolerance of my ignorance is much appreciated. No one in my family or my husbands family (including hubby) shoots so everything I know is from my limited experience, books or you guys!

Carbine is a loose term meaning a short rifle and I believe it dates to a time where the calvary needed shorter and easier to manage rifles on horseback.
From there it eventually led to a rifle for more rearguard troops like supply troops, cooks and artillery. There was also a desire for them at one point because of closer quarters city fighting.
Eventually most battle rifles became the shorter version, but some were even shorter to the point they were basically big pistols almost.
Basically, a carbine is historically a shorter version than the infantry rifle, but because infantery rifles used to be ridiculously long, a "carbine" from the 19th century might be longer than modern day military rifles.

Some carbines historically fired less powerful rounds (Spencer for instance), but some fired the same round as the full sized rifle (Like the Enfield jungle carbine).

Some rifles have a carbine name, and some short rifles that could technically be called a carbine are officiallly called rifles.

If it is a rifle that fires pistol ammo, then it is often called a carbine. If it is a short rifle firing medium powered rounds and is not a semi auto version of an assault rifle, then flip a coin on what to call it if it has not already been called a carbine already. If it is a semi auto version of an assault rifle, even if it uses intermediate powered rounds, then it is a rifle that you could call a carbine if you want to confuse people.

Pretty much what Novus said!

Carbines are usually shorter versions of rifles (the M4 being the latest, but in WWII there were carbine versions of the Enfield & K98), but lately they have also come to mean pistol caliber rifles with the advent of the 9mm AR and Beretta Storm.

You need to come to the October shoot, we will have you shooting all kinds of carbines and going home wanting one of your own!

Oof. This one can be a blurry one even for people more well versed on the subject.

Carbines were originally designed as rifles/muskets for cavalry. A full length rifle was awkward to carry and use from horseback. The term has basically stuck for rifles that are shorter than full length rifles.

Ammowise, most carbines today use the same ammo as their full length cousins and are basically modifications to the full length design. This isn't universal though. Some carbines are rifles that fire pistol caliber ammunition (ie, lever guns in .357 or .44 magnum, the more modern Beretta cx4 Storm, and 9mm AR-15s) and some fire their own unique calibers (ie, the M1 Carbine marked the debut of the .30 carbine caliber and has no real relation to the M1 Garand).

The line between carbine and submachinegun can be blurry when we deal with pistol caliber carbines that are really, really short. Technically they'd be both by some definitions. This is just an academic matter though.

As for more practical details, you essentially sacrifice some accuracy and stopping power for weight and size in a carbine and full length rifle in the same caliber.

Accuracy suffers a bit due to the lower muzzle velocity from the shorter barrel and a shorter sight radius since you just don't have as much room to stick the sights on top of the shorter barrel.

Stopping power drops due to that lower velocity. Some calibers need to be traveling at a certain velocity on impact to properly fragment/expand. Since air resistance slows down a bullet more and more after it leaves the muzzle, a round from a carbine can be much less effective past a certain range than its from a full length rifle. We're talking a considerable distance here though and it's still leaving handgun calibers in the dust.

Weight should be fairly self explanatory. Even a little weight reduction from the front end of a rifle can make it much easier to move around since the center of balance moves closer to the wielder.

Size is also mostly self explanatory. In military style rifles, the carbine version often also has a collapsible or folding stock as well so it takes up even less space when stored. There is some sacrifice in stability and comfort though, especially when you deal with the underfolding wire stocks you see on some AK-47s. For the collapsible stock, you typically have multiple positions you can set it to which can be handy if the full extension is uncomfortable for anyone that may have to use the firearm.

I'm not really sure what you mean by a non-trigger hand handle though. I'm guessing you mean a vertical foregrip, the type you sometimes see jutting out of the bottom from the horizontal foregrip on an AR-15. These actually can be found on some full length rifles, such as the Steyr AUG. They basically help keep the rifle under more control during rapid fire. I forget if one pulls back on it to keep the whole rifle better steadied to the shoulder or pushes forward on it to keep the rifle under tension though.

Hound...good question. I'm new to the rifles myself. I went from 0 this summer to 1/2 dozen in a few months.

All i know is a carbine is a shorter version of a rifle or pistol cal rifle. Thanks for the question...I got alot out of it.

Simon Yu said:

I'm not really sure what you mean by a non-trigger hand handle though. I'm guessing you mean a vertical foregrip, the type you sometimes see jutting out of the bottom from the horizontal foregrip on an AR-15. These actually can be found on some full length rifles, such as the Steyr AUG. They basically help keep the rifle under more control during rapid fire. I forget if one pulls back on it to keep the whole rifle better steadied to the shoulder or pushes forward on it to keep the rifle under tension though.

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Yes, thats exactly what I was referring to.

Damn, the more I learn the more I realize I don"t know shit about fire arms and even more, ammo. Guess I'll just have to keep reading up here at MD Shooters!

Ok, just to be evil, this is a carbine:


This is a handgun:



This is a rifle:



This is a handgun and maybe a carbine:



This is a pistol:


These are rifles carbines:


These are carbines rifles?:


These are rifles (I am kinda sure this time):

Are you trying to make me cry, Novus?

Houndkeeper said:

What are the other pros and cons of this style of firearm. I also see them often with a non trigger hand handle + stock....obviously this is different than say a long rifle. Purpose?

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According to the experts Sarah Brady and Paul Helmke the pistol grip facilitates spray-firing from the hip, in order to cause massive casualties of members of the police or U.S. military. That is the only purpose...

Houndkeeper said:

Yes, thats exactly what I was referring to.

Damn, the more I learn the more I realize I don"t know shit about fire arms and even more, ammo. Guess I'll just have to keep reading up here at MD Shooters!

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Of course thats half the fun, I learn at least a couple things new every day here myself, and hopefully always will

As many others have pointed out, the definition of a carbine is a gray area, but more or less is a term used to describe a short rifle, shortened version of a rifle, or a sub caliber rifle. As far as use, they generally fill in the gap between a full size rifle and pistol. In the case of a 1911 pistol, M1 carbine, and M1 garand, each represents a step up in power, and a step up in effective range, but at the expense of portability, and in many cases how fast the weapon can fire upon a target from a carry position, and the room that is required to manuver with the weapon in a ready position.

The key is to match the weapon and caliber to the job, and intended target. If you are looking to hunt medium deer sized game, in a densely wooded area where target ranges will be relatively short (50-100yds), and there is a lot of hiking involved, a carbine in a mid power cartridge (30-30, 44mag, 7.62X39) just might be perfect. The range would be too short to require the longer sight radius, and more powerful chamberings of a full sized rifle, but is a stretch for all but the largest hanguns where the reduced barrel length also reduces the velocity and efficiency of the round.

The thing is that optics also make the advantage of a longer sight radius a moot point, a 20" carbine, and a 24" rifle can be just as accurate, and easy to aim at long range. The shorter barrel does reduce velocity somewhat, depending on load it can be reduced by 50fps per inch of barrel, and can require a more powerful chambering to equal the performance of a lighter cartridge out of a longer barrel. In this case, the recoil can be significantly more, perhaps double out of a lighter smaller 20" carbine say in 300 short action ultra mag compared with a 24" rifle in a milder 30-06 to acieve the same ballistic performance.

In the case of a vertical forward grip, it is easier to hold a handle down than the forearm of a rifle during rapid or full auto fire, it also makes it easier to pull your elbow in close to steady the rifle while maintaining a solid hold to quickly point it at multiple targets, keeps your hand away from hot hand guards, and can be used as a monopod on top of a wall, car hood, or other shooting platform. The downside is that it is a obstacle to maintain a good stance in some shooting positions, namely prone, and makes it hard to keep your front arm in a stable and proper position to best steady the rifle for accurate long range shooting, it can also get caught on gear, or obstacles while moving with the rifle stored on a sling, or carried with one arm. In some cases sub-machineguns have had a forward side grip coming off of the left side of the forearm to aid in firing from a low or hip position, and to make it easier to turn the weapon on it's side for firing around walls, or out of a tank hatch and while keeping a person from having to expose much of themselves from cover. Must not have worked out that well though, I haven't seen any examples of subguns with the side grip used after WWII.

Houndkeeper said:

Are you trying to make me cry, Novus?

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As has been mentioned, carbine is not the most well defined term.

In Novus's examples, the presence or lack of a buttstock is often what differentiates something being called a pistol or rifle/carbine (though this doesn't apply to pistol grip only shotguns that are always considered shotguns). And in the case of the 6.8 mm SPC AR-15's, I believe that the caliber was designed for use in shorter length rifles so what would be considered a carbine length rifle in 5.56 mm is considered standard length.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=carbine

carbine
1590, from Fr. carabine, used of light horsemen and also of the weapon they carried, perhaps from M.L. Calabrinus "Calabrian." One far-fetched theory connects it to O.Fr. escarrabin "corpse-bearer during the plague," lit. (probably) "carrion beetle," said to have been an epithet for archers from Flanders.

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smores said:

According to the experts Sarah Brady and Paul Helmke the pistol grip facilitates spray-firing from the hip, in order to cause massive casualties of members of the police or U.S. military. That is the only purpose...

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No, no, according to them it allows you to "sweep" which is why, of course, all brooms have pistol grips. Wait, no they don't. Never mind.

K31 said:

No, no, according to them it allows you to "sweep" which is why, of course, all brooms have pistol grips. Wait, no they don't. Never mind.

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What kind of carbine are you interested in? I have a Marlin 1894 in .44mag that you're welcome to try.

joppaj said:

What kind of carbine are you interested in? I have a Marlin 1894 in .44mag that you're welcome to try.

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Actually, I was just curious. There is so much learn I just ask questions as they come to me.........which is often..........