Odd (or not so odd) AR issue

Muleskinner · Oct 20, 2020

SO I took one of my AR15 rifles that I built last year to the range (finally) and had an issue that I (nor anyone there) had ever seen. I'm sure it's probably a common issue but I'm asking if anyone else has ever experienced before.

Using brass American Eagle 55 grn bullet, gun cycles perfectly.
Using brass hand loads 55 grn bullet gun cycles fine. (My hand loads are balanced medium power loads, not even close to max)

Tula steel case 55 grn....the rifle ejects, trigger resets, bolt cycles but does not pick up a fresh round from the mag.

I checked the gas block an it seems fine. Screws are tight and I would think if it were a gas issue it wouldn't matter what I tried to shoot I would have this issue..10 round magpul mag. It lives in my range bag and I've used it in several AR style rifles and never had an issue.

Is there something different about the tula steel or is it gas related or was I just not holding my mouth correctly?

wilcam47 · Oct 20, 2020

Steel is sticky imo, ive had a couple rifles have issues with steel ammo. Some newer rifles dont shoot steel cased ammo that well if at all

Muleskinner · Oct 20, 2020

One more thing..I took 2 ARs to the range this morning. Only one had the issue. I used the same mag in both.

Melnic · Oct 20, 2020

If it does not pick up a new round then I bet it also does not hold the bolt open in last round.
When I try new ammo or reloads or testing a new setup, I'll run 5-10 singles in a magazine to verify its really fully cycling and last round holds bolt open
Swap bolt assemblies see if the problem follows the bolt
Swap Spring/Buffers and see if the problem follows the Spring/buffer
Eliminating things to isolate the difference between the two will let you hone in on the problem.
Good thing is you have 2 ARS to swap parts to see. Sometimes the working AR is marginal. I had a marginal bolt and when it got really cold. like freezing temps, it would not cycle my reloads. I bumped up my reload powder by only .2grains and it made a difference. Factory American Eagle was fine.

More lube may help,
Honing the chamber may help
Running a bunch more rounds may help
Running a lighter buffer spring may help
Running a lighter buffer may help
Getting it set up for more gas may help

Applehd · Oct 20, 2020

Doesn't steel cased ammo have a clear coat finish... shellac or something...? Might that have something to do with it...? Just a guess. :shrug:

calicojack · Oct 20, 2020

When you run your regular ammo that functions correctly, where does your brass land relative to you; about 1 O'clock or more like 5 O'clock? If it is landing more like 5 o'clock your AR is a bit under gassed. I think ideal is about 4 o'clock.

Muleskinner · Oct 20, 2020

calicojack said:
When you run your regular ammo that functions correctly, where does your brass land relative to you; about 1 O'clock or more like 5 O'clock? If it is landing more like 5 o'clock your AR is a bit under gassed. I think ideal is about 4 o'clock.

3-4 oclock with the brass ammo, 5 for the steel. I had to manually cycle the bolt to put another round in the chamber. I get what your saying...I guess the truly odd thing is the only difference is the steel/brass cases and I know that shouldn't matter.

Muleskinner · Oct 20, 2020

Melnic said:
If it does not pick up a new round then I bet it also does not hold the bolt open in last round.
When I try new ammo or reloads or testing a new setup, I'll run 5-10 singles in a magazine to verify its really fully cycling and last round holds bolt open
Swap bolt assemblies see if the problem follows the bolt
Swap Spring/Buffers and see if the problem follows the Spring/buffer
Eliminating things to isolate the difference between the two will let you hone in on the problem.
Good thing is you have 2 ARS to swap parts to see. Sometimes the working AR is marginal. I had a marginal bolt and when it got really cold. like freezing temps, it would not cycle my reloads. I bumped up my reload powder by only .2grains and it made a difference. Factory American Eagle was fine.

More lube may help,
Honing the chamber may help
Running a bunch more rounds may help
Running a lighter buffer spring may help
Running a lighter buffer may help
Getting it set up for more gas may help

Good advice all around. I will take my stash of parts and an extra rifle and play around with changing out parts next time I can get back to the range. I should have thought about swapping the BCG and buffer/spring while I was there.

3paul10 · Oct 20, 2020

wilcam47 said:
Steel is sticky imo, ive had a couple rifles have issues with steel ammo. Some newer rifles dont shoot steel cased ammo that well if at all

It's also underpowered.....some guns are ok with it.....depends on the gas system of the gun....that's the simplest answer.

AssMan · Oct 20, 2020

Sounds like it's short-stroking. Might try swapping BCG's from another AR too.

calicojack · Oct 20, 2020

Muleskinner said:
3-4 oclock with the brass ammo, 5 for the steel. I had to manually cycle the bolt to put another round in the chamber. I get what your saying...I guess the truly odd thing is the only difference is the steel/brass cases and I know that shouldn't matter.

Hmm - ok so the steel case ammo might be sticking and more difficult to extract.

If this is a new barrel, some break-in may fix the problem.

denimdan85 · Oct 22, 2020

Tula is super weak compared to the american eagle. The gun is short stroking sounds like. What weight buffer? Barrel length? Gas key screws tight and staked properly?

erwos · Oct 22, 2020

Is this the Tula range-safe 55gr? Is your rifle mid or rifle gas?

outrider58 · Oct 22, 2020

Did you try one round in a mag to start with? Does the bolt lock back on an empty chamber using the Tula?

Steel cases don't expand in the chamber like brass does, thereby allowing some gas to escape rearward back into the chamber. You could have a bit of a loose chamber which can exacerbate that situation. This might fix itself with more fouling.

ETA; Brand new gas blocks on brand new barrels also leak gas until fouling seals them up.

Muleskinner · Oct 22, 2020

Bolt will not stay open with the tula on the last round.. Mid length gas, everything appears to be in working order. Tried the same ammo with a different upper with same BCG and same issue. The same BCG in a different rifle worked fine. I tried wolf steel case in the original configuration and it cycles, and locks back. Everything I did now points to the tula crap ammo... except the tula ammo cycles all 3 of my other AR carbines, both my AR pistols (10.2 and 7.5) and my Ares Defense SCR .carbine and my mini 14.I'm just going to use this tula crap in the mini 14 so it doesn't get mixed up with my AR mags and not buy it anymore. I have 400 rounds..

I can't tell you what buffer/spring it has because it's just a generic mil spec tube that it came with.

outrider58 · Oct 22, 2020

Mid gas on a 16" barrel?

I say get the new gun shot in and try it again later on.

erwos · Oct 23, 2020

outrider58 said:
Mid gas on a 16" barrel?

I say get the new gun shot in and try it again later on.

Some of the Russian ammo has weird pressure curves and does not always play nice with middy and rifle gas barrels. The range-safe 55gr, in particular, seems like it has real problems. (The 62gr was fine, oddly enough.)

outrider58 · Oct 23, 2020

erwos said:
Some of the Russian ammo has weird pressure curves and does not always play nice with middy and rifle gas barrels. The range-safe 55gr, in particular, seems like it has real problems. (The 62gr was fine, oddly enough.)

Yeah, mid-gas on 16 inchers is always a roll of the dice when shooting 'other than NATO' ammo. The whole concept of that barrel setup was to soften the impulse of M4 carbines for better follow-up shots. It is the worse setup for light loads/3 gun type setups/ammo.
My feeling is, if you want a 16" mid-gas gun or upper, plan on using it for you SHTF gun and feed it full power ammo.

SkiPatrolDude · Oct 23, 2020

snallygaster said:
Sounds like it's short-stroking. Might try swapping BCG's from another AR too.

^ This. Almost definitely short stroking.

Tula and most steel case varieties are notoriously under powered.

Since you built the AR, what barrel did you use? Some manufacturers like BA and Rosco are known to have slightly under gassed (properly gassed IMO) barrels.

What buffer are you running? If you really want it to cycle the cheap stuff, you can throw in a lighter buffer, maybe even an underpowered spring.

It's also possible that your gas block is not aligned properly, either canted, or too far forward or too far back. This is not likely but worth mentioning. A Gas block can be pretty far off center and still completely cover the gas port.

Oswaldo87 · Oct 23, 2020

I picked up some wolf steel cased stuff a few years ago and use it when I don’t feel like picking up brass. I have ran it in 3/4 of my ARs and they have the same problem once in a while. Enough to eject empty but not enough to pick up the next round. I attribute it to low QC in regards to powder measure.

Odd (or not so odd) AR issue

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