Young Opening Brief Filed

frogman68 · Jul 25, 2018

Just dawned on me

this goes en banc (not to be a party pooper) and we know the mental midgets will say this is wrong decision. If pushed to SCOTUS can the Justice that oversees this court put a injunction in till it's heard ?

Looks like that Justice would be Kavanaugh , just another thing to make liberal heads explode

danb · Jul 25, 2018

Kopel has a post here: https://reason.com/volokh/2018/07/24/ninth-circuit-upholds-right-to-licensed

This opinion does not address "justifiable need" so this ruling was in fact very limited. Seems to me this wont be appealed. Why risk this going the the Supreme Court? Hawaii can still hide behind justifiable need, which would start a brand new case.

krucam · Jul 25, 2018

danb said:
Kopel has a post here: https://reason.com/volokh/2018/07/24/ninth-circuit-upholds-right-to-licensed

This opinion does not address "justifiable need" so this ruling was in fact very limited. Seems to me this wont be appealed. Why risk this going the the Supreme Court? Hawaii can still hide behind justifiable need, which would start a brand new case.

It did get 'Bear, Outside the Home' and Self Defense for the 'justifiable need' from the 9th, if it stands which will be huge.

Assuming it stands, more cases are going to have to be filed throughout the Circuit, but CA and HI in particular.

The Nichols case was being held at CA9 pending Young, so it should be going forward once the Mandate is issued, which may or may not happen...

krucam · Jul 25, 2018

Here's the part of the Opinion I was referring to:

We do not take lightly the problem of gun violence, which the State of Hawaii “has understandably sought to fight . . . with every legal tool at its disposal.” Wrenn, 864 F.3d at 667. We see nothing in our opinion that would prevent the State from regulating the right to bear arms, for the Second Amendment leaves the State “a variety of tools for combatting [the problem of gun violence], including some measures regulating handguns.” Heller, 554 U.S. at 636.

But, for better or for worse, the Second Amendment does protect a right to carry a firearm in public for self-defense. We would thus flout the Constitution if we were to hold that, “in regulating the manner of bearing arms, the authority of [the State] has no other limit than its own discretion.” Reid, 1 Ala. at 616. While many respectable scholars and activists might find virtue in a firearms-carry regime that restricts the right to a privileged few, “the enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table.” Heller, 554 U.S. at 636.

Young has indeed stated a claim that section 134-9’s limitations on the issuance of open carry licenses violate the Second Amendment.22

REVERSED as to the County, DISMISSED as to the State,23 and REMANDED for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.24

Self Defense is now Justifiable Need...

Bigfoot21075 · Jul 25, 2018

krucam said:
Here's the part of the Opinion I was referring to:

Self Defense is now Justifiable Need...

Excellent point

press1280 · Jul 25, 2018

krucam said:
Here's the part of the Opinion I was referring to:

Self Defense is now Justifiable Need...

The opinion simply can't be interpreted to allow for may issue. Young is your average Joe on the street. He gets a permit, everyone who's not prohibited should also get one.

light12pdr · Jul 25, 2018

Does the ruling only allow for open carry? Could Hawaii allow concealed carry instead and still comply with the ruling?

danb · Jul 25, 2018

krucam said:
Here's the part of the Opinion I was referring to:

Self Defense is now Justifiable Need...

That part of the opinion does certainly seem to take justifiable need off the table. I am not clear why Kopel seems to disagree with this.

Bob A · Jul 25, 2018

krucam said:
Here's the part of the Opinion I was referring to:

Self Defense is now Justifiable Need...

In states within the jurisdiction of the 9th circuit, until challenged or reviewed en banc, or put on hold by some state AG petition.

I may be mistaken,of course, but there are any number of delaying tactics that can be brought to bear.

mxrider · Jul 25, 2018

while just sitting back happy for Wolfwood, i hadn't actually processed the fact that this ruling SHOULD mean that open carry permits must be issued in all states governed by the 9th circuit. Pelosi must be having a fit!

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fidelity · Jul 25, 2018

mxrider said:
while just sitting back happy for Wolfwood, i hadn't actually processed the fact that this ruling SHOULD mean that open carry permits must be issued in all states governed by the 9th circuit. Pelosi must be having a fit!

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You were probably just writing this quickly, but why would one need a permit to exercise a right, especially after the court reaffirmed it as such?

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press1280 · Jul 25, 2018

danb said:
That part of the opinion does certainly seem to take justifiable need off the table. I am not clear why Kopel seems to disagree with this.

My guess is that Young's complaint didn't specifically challenge the provision for a specific need. So the court can't technically strike what wasn't asked for.
However, the opinion just won't support it, and the District court would likely not try to thumb their nose at the circuit's opinion.

mxrider · Jul 26, 2018

fidelity said:
You were probably just writing this quickly, but why would one need a permit to exercise a right, especially after the court reaffirmed it as such?

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Not really. The courts essentially said that Hawaii has to allow open carry, but also said that there are ways to regulate it

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teratos · Jul 26, 2018

mxrider said:
Not really. The courts essentially said that Hawaii has to allow open carry, but also said that there are ways to regulate it

However it indicates that nothing should prohibit the open carry of a firearm outside the home. In Heller, Scalia said that long standing prohibitions on felons etc. where Constitutional, and that will certainly be applicable to carry, however a permit to exercise a Constitutional Right (outside of TPM, as permits for assemblies and rallys have been upheld where the 1A is concerned) is not the norm.

mxrider · Jul 26, 2018

teratos said:
However it indicates that nothing should prohibit the open carry of a firearm outside the home. In Heller, Scalia said that long standing prohibitions on felons etc. where Constitutional, and that will certainly be applicable to carry, however a permit to exercise a Constitutional Right (outside of TPM, as permits for assemblies and rallys have been upheld where the 1A is concerned) is not the norm.

While I agree with you in theory, the reality of it is that until SCOTUS makes that decision, the circuit courts have upheld the constitutionality of things like purchase permits in other states just like our beloved HQL (which we hope will get thrown out).

fidelity · Jul 26, 2018

Is there an example of a purely open carry handgun permit for citizens of any state? (One that is not linked to obtaining a conceal carry permit, not hunting related, etc)

MD once used the argument that because the public can openly carry long guns, this is why they can separately have a permitting process when it comes to conceal carry of handguns.

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delaware_export · Jul 26, 2018

wolf,

my question is, do you think they will appeal this higher and risk a more national effect? ca had outlawed OC almost everywhere. ny, nj too.

i've read the dc didn't appeal shall issue cc to avoid a possible loss at higher levels. would hawaii and effected areas want to appeal, with the possible result throwing all of the other a2a states under the bus on open carry? (nj/ny/md,etc)

swinokur · Jul 26, 2018

Some states require a CCW to OC.

GA is one

krucam · Jul 26, 2018

swinokur said:
Some states require a CCW to OC.

GA is one

And TX...

press1280 · Jul 26, 2018

There are some states that are general carry permits. I would not be surprised if CA and HI go to this if OC is ruled "the right".

Young Opening Brief Filed

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