Selling a rifle to a PA resident?

Sirex · Nov 16, 2015

So, I have a rifle for sale. A guy who lives in PA is interested. He told me since it's unregulated, we don't need to do any paperwork. I called BS on him. He said he called a FFL (one I know) and they said I could sell it to him without a license. Again, I call BS. Now he says his FFL says only the FFL in the BUYERS state can do the transfer. Is that true, or can it be done here in MD? I know it has to be done thru a FFL, but is there a stipulation on where? Because, I think you can buy a gun in a neighboring state and bring it back, correct? The guy is being a pain, so I am about to bail.

protegeV · Nov 16, 2015

Should be able to be done through an ffl in either state. Can't be f2f, i know that much.

Sirex · Nov 16, 2015

Thanks, that's what I thought. I know it can't be FTF if he's a Penn resident. He just doesn't want to drive, is my thought. I think I am going to cut my losses.

Rack&Roll · Nov 16, 2015

good plan.

AACo · Nov 16, 2015

Something I can answer correctly!

Unless the law has changed recently, a FTF transfer (long gun) can occur between two PA residents, only in the commonwealth and only if you know for darn certain the buyer is not a felon or prohibited person. Usually for family and friend transfers.

So in your case, legally a FFL is required. This day and age, a good idea anyways.

woodstock · Nov 16, 2015

if this long gun is on the prohibited list you could be stepping in foo-doo. no AK of any variants, and others like bushmaster-AR platform.

alucard0822 · Nov 16, 2015

Must go through an FFL in buyer's state, plain and simple, bail if it's too much trouble, or smells funny. Thing is gun culture up here is different, people sell guns in classifieds, yard sales, and trade stuff constantly, F2F sales are very popular. A large number have no idea what the law is, most figure(rightly so) that they have a right to sell their property to whoever they want, and there isn't really any news about otherwise honest people getting busted unlawfully selling to each other.

AACo · Nov 16, 2015

http://www.psp.pa.gov/Documents/Public%20Documents/SP4-135_Information_Firearm_Purchasers_and_Safety-PG-2-10-2008.pdf

From the PSP. Granted, from '08.

Commonly asked questions #4. Also answers OPs other question. Transfer would need to be done in PA.

Hawkeye · Nov 17, 2015

Sales between residents of two different states MUST be handled by an FFL in the state of residence of the purchaser. I don't know what FFL would have told this guy differently, but either the FFL didn't know the law or the guy was lying to you about having asked. This is Federal law and has nothing to do with it being PA or MD.

From the ATF:

2. May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a friend who resides in a different State?
Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual
who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully
transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a
Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then
receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background
check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov and
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html. The GCA provides an exception from this
prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. Thus, for
example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception is
provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by
intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who
inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5)

Sirex · Nov 17, 2015

I know it needs to go thru a FFL, and it's not a banned rifle, it's a bolt gun. I don't think PA has any restrictions on long guns, do they. I was under the impression we could do the transfer at a FFL here in MD. People go to gun stores in PA and VA to buy guns, no? But, kinda moot point now, as the guy keeps going back and forth. Doubt it's going to happen.

ras_oscar · Nov 17, 2015

When I purchased a regulated firearm from a dealer in PA It was shipped to my MD FFL. That squares with what is stated above: the transaction needs to be blessed by the an FFL in the purchaser's state of residence. Presumably ALL FFLs know the fedral law, and my guess is that by using a FFL in the receiving state, that FFL also kows what is and is not permitted there as well.

eruby · Nov 17, 2015

Sirex said:
I know it needs to go thru a FFL, and it's not a banned rifle, it's a bolt gun. I don't think PA has any restrictions on long guns, do they. I was under the impression we could do the transfer at a FFL here in MD. People go to gun stores in PA and VA to buy guns, no? But, kinda moot point now, as the guy keeps going back and forth. Doubt it's going to happen.

Penciltucky Joe can definitely come to the People's Republic and buy that long gun from a FFL here.

alucard0822 · Nov 17, 2015

Sirex said:
I know it needs to go thru a FFL, and it's not a banned rifle, it's a bolt gun. I don't think PA has any restrictions on long guns, do they. I was under the impression we could do the transfer at a FFL here in MD. People go to gun stores in PA and VA to buy guns, no? But, kinda moot point now, as the guy keeps going back and forth. Doubt it's going to happen.

out of state long gun transfers have an odd rule, FFL to do the transfer must be in the buyer's state only, not the seller's or any other state, seller can ship to the FFL if travel is an issue. If it's over the counter purchased from an FFL directly, then you can buy from any state provided the laws of both states are followed(can't buy a MD banned rifle in PA, no such thing as banned or regulated rifle in PA). Not sure at what level a private transfer via FFL becomes a direct sale from an FFL and can be done outside of the buyer's state, used guns in dealer inventory are definitely OK, guns ordered through a 3rd party FFL seem OK (MD res, gets VZ2000 and 30rd mags from Palmetto sent to FFL in PA) not sure about consignment, probably depends on the circumstance, if it was transferred to the FFL, and how brave the FFL is.

swinokur · Nov 17, 2015

Buying a long gun from an FFL in another state is not the same as buying from an individual in another state.

Pinecone · Nov 17, 2015

Man, so many wrong answers.

Long gun between residents of two states must go through an FFL. The FFL can be in the buyers state, or the sellers state, or another state entirely.

The sale must meet the laws of the state of residence of the buyer and the state where the FFL is located.

So, an MD resident selling an banned gun to a PA resident, the FFL cannot be in MD, as the sale does not meet the laws of MD. But it could be done through a PA or WV or VA or etc FFL.

The BATFE page is being overly restrictive.

The way it works is, the sale is basically from the FFL to the buyer. So that can occur in any state where the transaction is legal.

alucard0822 · Nov 17, 2015

Pinecone said:
Man, so many wrong answers.

Long gun between residents of two states must go through an FFL. The FFL can be in the buyers state, or the sellers state, or another state entirely.

The sale must meet the laws of the state of residence of the buyer and the state where the FFL is located.

So, an MD resident selling an banned gun to a PA resident, the FFL cannot be in MD, as the sale does not meet the laws of MD. But it could be done through a PA or WV or VA or etc FFL.

The BATFE page is being overly restrictive.

The way it works is, the sale is basically from the FFL to the buyer. So that can occur in any state where the transaction is legal.

Not the case, a transfer from one individual to another with a 4473 and NICS/PICS handled by and FFL must be in the buyer's state, at least as I, and a couple FFLS I've dealt with understand it, it's a federal gun law, so of course it's BS. Long gun can only be transferred to a non-resident if the transaction would be legal in both states, and the firearm is sold from the dealer's bound book inventory, not from a 3rd party non-FFL. Hopefully an industry partner can clear it up.

An unlicensed person who is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms may purchase a firearm from an out–of–State source, provided the transfer takes place through a Federal firearms licensee in his or her State of residence.

[18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3); 27 CFR 478.29]

Generally, a person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State. Exceptions include the acquisition pursuant to a lawful bequest, or an over–the–counter acquisition of a rifle or shotgun from a licensee where the transaction is allowed by the purchaser’s State of residence and the licensee’s State of business. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C 922(a)(3); 27 CFR 478.29]

A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her State, provided the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. There may be State laws that regulate intrastate firearm transactions. A person considering transferring a firearm should contact his or her State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local restrictions.

Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) within the transferee’s State of residence. The transferee may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check.

A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he or she or she does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent.

A person may transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C 922(a)(5) and 922(d); 27 CFR 478.30, 478.32]

swinokur · Nov 17, 2015

BATF FAQ
.

whistlersmother · Nov 17, 2015

Pinecone said:
Man, so many wrong answers.

Long gun between residents of two states must go through an FFL. The FFL can be in the buyers state, or the sellers state, or another state entirely.

The sale must meet the laws of the state of residence of the buyer and the state where the FFL is located.

So, an MD resident selling an banned gun to a PA resident, the FFL cannot be in MD, as the sale does not meet the laws of MD. But it could be done through a PA or WV or VA or etc FFL.

The BATFE page is being overly restrictive.

The way it works is, the sale is basically from the FFL to the buyer. So that can occur in any state where the transaction is legal.

This is ... ironic given who wrote it wrt a recent discussion with registering already registered regulated firearms... :innocent0

Pinecone · Nov 17, 2015

I bet that language is a hold over from pre FOPA 86.

From GCA 68 until FOPA 86, you could only buy ANY firearm in your state of residence or an adjacent state.

Now you can buy a long gun in any state (by Federal law).

Since shipping it to an FFL, puts it in that FFLs bound book, the final transaction is between the FFL and the buyer. And under current law, that does NOT have to be in the state of residence of the buyer.

Biggfoot44 · Nov 17, 2015

A "Transfer" IS a sale from the dealer's Bound Book. I've watched it occur in front of my eyes. It might indeed get entered OUT 30 sec after it is entered IN , but it goes thru the bound book.

Selling a rifle to a PA resident?

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