HB1000/SB1040 Terrorist Watchlist - my suggested talking points

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  • aray

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 6, 2010
    5,312
    MD -> KY
    Details of the bill:

    Synopsis: "Prohibiting the sale, rental, or transfer of a regulated firearm, rifle, or shotgun to a person who is on the Terrorist Watchlist maintained by the Federal Bureau of Investigation; and prohibiting the Secretary of State Police from issuing a permit to carry, wear, or transport a handgun to a person listed on the Terrorist Watchlist."

    House hearing on Friday 2/26 (this week) at 1 PM. Senate hearing not scheduled but may be on Tuesday 3/15.

    Text of the bill is here and further details are located here.

    -----

    Suggested talking points:

    * I'd start by acknowledging we all want to keep guns out of the hands of true bad guys. No one wants terrorists to have guns or get a carry permit. The point is how do we differentiate between true bad guys and false positives, and do so in a lawful way that respects civil liberties?

    * False positives are well known and include the late Senator Ted Kennedy. Wikipedia has a long documented list of people incorrectly on the No Fly List here. These include many kids under the ages of 5, ACLU lawyers, many who have served honorably in the US Armed Forces, one Senator (Ted Kennedy D-MA) and two Congressmen (John Lewis D-GA & Don Young R-AK), Air Marshall Service members on the very flights they were assigned to protect (!), 53 nonviolent political activists incorrectly classified as terrorists by the Maryland State Police (they were death penalty and Iraq War opponents), well-known journalists & actors, etc.

    * It is difficult even for people of the statute of Senator Ted Kennedy to get removed. Even after appealing directly to the Secretary of Homeland Security it took 3 weeks to clear his name. What about normal folks without that access? As Senator Kennedy said of "ordinary citizens": ""How are they going to be able to get to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?"

    * Ask MD GA Members how they plan to address this known and serious problem. What amendments will they make to the bill?

    * Once a person in MD is falsely denied access to firearms because of this bill, what is the Due Process by which a person can have his or her rights restored? The Federal Government has a DHS Traveler Redress Inquire Program. Why was a similar process not included in this bill?

    * That Restoration process is just entirely lacking in the bill as written. Ask them what changes they will make in the bill to allow errors to be corrected.

    * The ACLU has expressed grave Civil Liberties concerns about these lists and how they're used. They wrote: "The government is adding people to its already bloated watchlisting system at breakneck pace, and it’s still hungry for more. ... Those documents vindicate our concerns and warnings about a massive, virtually standardless government watchlisting scheme that ensnares innocent people and encourages racial and religious profiling. The documents confirm what we have long suspected: It doesn’t take much to get yourself on a terrorist watchlist. The government’s recently leaked Watchlisting Guidance starts with a poorly defined “reasonable suspicion” standard and then subjects it to so many exceptions and caveats as to render it virtually toothless. The unsurprising result, as is clear from these documents, is a set of watchlists experiencing explosive growth."

    * Any accused person has the Constitutional right to hear the evidence against him or her, to present evidence that he or she is wrongly accused, and to be adjudicated accordingly. That whole structure is missing in this bill.

    * There are many Federal lawsuits working their way through the courts about this program at the national level related to Due Process and Religious Discrimination. Ask them: Is Maryland prepared to litigate similar cases and to pay damages for denial of civil rights?

    * The Terrorist Watch List contains 400,000 unique names, 1600 are added daily, 600 names are removed daily, and 4800 are modified by the intelligence community. President Obama's own Justice Department of Inspector General has criticized the list for frequent errors and being slow to correct. An OIG audit found a 38% error rate in their tested sample. Other examples of bad data in this list can be found here.

    -----

    How to help:

    * Visit Annapolis in person. Show up Friday and testify in the House Judiciary Committee hearing room. Sign up by noon to testify starting at 1 PM. If you want to provide written testimony, by 11 AM leave 30 copies for the House (20 for the Senate on a subsequent date). Then go speak with your delegates after the hearings. If you don't know who represents you in the GA, you can find that out here.

    * Make phone calls. Once you know who represents you, the entire list of GA legislators can be found here. Links off of that page will lead you to each legislator, to include his or her phone & fax numbers, office locations, individual email addresses, and other contact information.

    * Email your legislators, or even the entire General Assembly. There are convenient emailers at AGC or also the Civic Action email system. You don't need to cover all of the points I suggested above. Pick one, or two. Something in their inbox is better than nothing. In aggregate, we'll cover it all, but everyone has to do their part.

    Re: emails, I'd recommend you pick one bad bill a night and send it off. The drip drip drip of all of us flooding the GA's email servers every day and every week is much more effective than a one size fits all massive blast you only do once. You don't have to be wordy. Pick a bill, make your points, then come back the next night and do it again with another bill. When you've cycled through them all, have people you know believe the same way join in to do it too. Which leads me to:

    * Get your wife involved, your kids involved, your neighbors, your friends, your work colleagues who feel the same way, the folks on your social media accounts, etc. At the moment I'm not seeing the passion we need to stop this and other bad bills; we all need to do more.

    * I'd also suggest on all of those emails, calls, etc. that you contact Governor Larry Hogan as well, and ask him to veto the bill if it passes, stating the reasons why you believe he should do that. You can find his contact information here.

    By all means use any or all of the information above that you find helpful, but of course put it in your own words. This should be personalized to you otherwise cut & pastes will be recognized for what they are and ignored. It doesn't have to be long, it doesn't have to be eloquent - just speak from your heart even if brief and that will make a difference.

    -----

    Final comment: This will be an interesting bill to watch. My own personal opinion is that this will be one of the toughest to stop. The sound bite is going to be: we're gun nuts who are so extreme - even to the point of allowing terrorists to have guns. We'll have to work hard to counter that misperception, and I believe it starts with showing real flaws in the bill, flaws that will matter to them. Ask them to fix it, to amend the bill in a way that will respect civil liberties and due process. Hopefully that's exactly what they'll do, or failing that kill the whole thing as unfixable.
     

    K31

    "Part of that Ultra MAGA Crowd"
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 15, 2006
    35,678
    AA county
    Thanks for doing this. Unfortunately, I can't go in person but will burn up the GA email system.

    The only comment I have on your talking points is on these two:

    * Once a person in MD is falsely denied access to firearms because of this bill, what is the Due Process by which a person can have his or her rights restored? The Federal Government has a DHS Traveler Redress Inquire Program. Why was a similar process not included in this bill?

    * That Restoration process is just entirely lacking in the bill as written. Ask them what changes they will make in the bill to allow errors to be corrected.

    I think you are giving them the answer to your question and it's not the one we want, that is, their answer to how you can get your rights restored may be, go use the .gov process to get off the list.:tdown:

    I don't think they would care, but while this extra-constitutional process is apparently ok with those in power, because air travel is not a right, firearms possession is. I don't think it would pass a legal challenge but that of course means someone has to get screwed in that process. Also, Frosh has no problem spending our tax money to support his political beliefs, even if they are already proven unconstitutional.
     

    RoadDawg

    Nos nostraque Deo
    Dec 6, 2010
    94,462
    They need something one hell of a lot better than any damn near 40% incorrect watch list to start denying COTUS rights to citizens...

    Illegal aliens get treated far better than that.

    Hell no to that bill... Send it back and tell them to fix it so it works FOR us instead of against us.

    Start looking at the actual folks who are committing the acts instead of grandma and the two year old...
     

    aray

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 6, 2010
    5,312
    MD -> KY
    Thanks for doing this. Unfortunately, I can't go in person but will burn up the GA email system.

    The only comment I have on your talking points is on these two:



    I think you are giving them the answer to your question and it's not the one we want, that is, their answer to how you can get your rights restored may be, go use the .gov process to get off the list.:tdown:

    I don't think they would care, but while this extra-constitutional process is apparently ok with those in power, because air travel is not a right, firearms possession is. I don't think it would pass a legal challenge but that of course means someone has to get screwed in that process. Also, Frosh has no problem spending our tax money to support his political beliefs, even if they are already proven unconstitutional.

    That's a good point. What I meant to portray is that the Maryland bill has no escape clause; once in you're stuck with no means of rights restoration. They could put an appellate process directly into HB1000/SB1040. However you're probably right; they'll just point you to .gov and be done with it.

    So agreed, strike that reference above, but I think the rest of the talking points have merit by themselves.

    Thanks for that catch. There's three reasons to post stuff like this: 1) so others can borrow helpful ideas, 2) so others can brainstorm & add to the list, and 3) find flaws in what has already been captured so they can be corrected. Thanks again.
     

    BeoBill

    Crank in the Third Row
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 3, 2013
    27,194
    南馬里蘭州鮑伊
    They need something one hell of a lot better than any damn near 40% incorrect watch list to start denying COTUS rights to citizens...

    Illegal aliens get treated far better than that.

    Hell no to that bill... Send it back and tell them to fix it so it works FOR us instead of against us.

    Start looking at the actual folks who are committing the acts instead of grandma and the two year old...

    Even better, tell them to scrap it before it's officially declared unconstitutional, and save the state a boatload of money. Let NYC face the court challenge on it. :mad54:
     

    Jim12

    Let Freedom Ring
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2013
    34,099
    Of all the stupid bills before the MGA, this one takes the cake.

    Use a notoriously inaccurate list to deprive people of their rights?

    Irresponsible. Tyrannical.

    And the MGA wonders why people are worried, without reason, that they are taking our rights away?
     

    aray

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 6, 2010
    5,312
    MD -> KY
    Agreed, but they have a great media soundbite on their hands: These gun nuts are so fanatic that they even oppose taking guns away from terrorists.

    One sentence, one message. We have to explain. And in the media, if you're explaining, you're losing. We have an uphill fight on this one sadly.

    To win, we're going to need to appeal to the built-in civil liberty concerns that the Democrats have. The MSP example of our own state turning in liberal protestors is a good one. Senator Ted Kennedy is a good one. ACLU lawyers are good ones. All of these things matter to them. Build on their inherent fears in this area, legitimize their concerns, and we can make some progress.
     

    Jimbob2.0

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 20, 2008
    16,600
    I don't understand how they would know? If the Terror List is secret? How will the state have that info and how does an everday joe confirm if they are on the list or not (right or wrong?)
     

    aray

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 6, 2010
    5,312
    MD -> KY
    The "fact of" the terror database is not secret but the contents are secret. Only the intelligence community, law enforcement agencies, and other appropriate governmental agencies have access. The average joe usually doesn't know he/she is on the list until they try to do something (like fly, or now access firearms). Only at that point are they told "no".

    Getting off if wrongly accused (e.g. your name is similar to someone else who is a real person of interest) has been shown to be very problematic. And, since you're not charged with a crime, you don't even get your day in court, unless you hire a lawyer to force this. But even then, it's difficult because the list of names and rationale for inclusion on the list are secret (e.g. derived from sensitive intelligence sources & methods in some cases).
     

    Jim12

    Let Freedom Ring
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2013
    34,099
    Agreed, but they have a great media soundbite on their hands: these gun nuts are so fanatic that they even oppose taking guns away from terrorists.

    One sentence, one message. We have to explain. And in the media, if you're explaining, you're losing. We have an uphill fight on this one sadly.

    But that bill isn't taking guns away from terrorists. If they were terrorists, they could be charged with a crime, prosecuted, and that would be that.

    We oppose using hysteria-driven, sweeping, dragnet "precautions" to strip people of their rights. It's more like the Japanese internment camps during WWII.

    Steve Hayes, prominent DC journalist is on the Watch list. Maybe he'd testify.
     

    Jim12

    Let Freedom Ring
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2013
    34,099
    I just see him on fox news regularly. Very articulate guy.
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    Technical point...

    The Terror Watchlist and the "No-Fly List" are two separate beasts. This bill goes after the TW.

    Ted Kennedy was (and Steve Hayes is) on the No-Fly, along with many others who shouldn't be on there.

    I'm certain there are many on the TW who shouldn't be there, but if you send/give testimony referencing the wrong subject matter, they'll disregard it.

    The principle is the same, FTMP, but framing your testimony correctly is critical.
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    Hope your email gets them prepared for my written testimony. :mad54:

    Posting only because I know some folks like to 'borrow' from me...

    Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee,

    HB1000, which would further restrict the Right of Marylanders to effective self-protection through additional limiting of the issuance of Wear and Carry permits, may be well-intended but is (once again) nothing more than a knee-jerk response to current events.

    As with the atrocious--and apocryphally named--Firearms Safety Act of 2013 (which I am proud to have fought and helped limit, motivating many to descend on Annapolis in record numbers), which came into being over one act, HB1000 appears to have been conceived in the back alley of one act of terrorism. The one thing these progenitors of bad law have in common has nothing to do with this legislation, but rather that application of current law by both individuals and law enforcement would have likely prevented them.

    The Terrorism Watch List, as maintained by the FBI, is known to be largely erroneous. It is also believed to be a strict violation of not only Due Process, but also of several Constitutionally Enumerated Rights (I count five... and this bill would make six).

    To utilize a known flawed standard as the basis for determining the application of an Enumerated Right (regardless of the restrictions already in place) is the hallmark of a desperate attempt at legislative fiat, and should be an embarrassment to a body as historically distinguished as the Maryland General Assembly.

    The time-tested saw, "One case makes for bad law" definitely would apply here, and I recommend an Unfavorable vote.

    Sincerely,

    me
    Democrat, D32
     

    aray

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 6, 2010
    5,312
    MD -> KY
    Technical point...

    The Terror Watchlist and the "No-Fly List" are two separate beasts. This bill goes after the TW.

    Ted Kennedy was (and Steve Hayes is) on the No-Fly, along with many others who shouldn't be on there.

    I'm certain there are many on the TW who shouldn't be there, but if you send/give testimony referencing the wrong subject matter, they'll disregard it.

    The principle is the same, FTMP, but framing your testimony correctly is critical.

    I knew that, but one is derived in part from the other, and as you can imagine there is significant overlap in the list of names. I conflated them for conciseness of discussion and because it doesn't affect the logic or the overall point being made. Nevertheless, your point is absolutely valid. Sloppiness is an opening which can be exploited by an opponent to ignore the arguments. Any error gets magnified, and the truth ignored. I knew that too. (It's sorta like when people point out spelling or syntactic mistakes, and ignore the logic and semantics.)

    But you're absolutely right. We can't afford to be even technically wrong. Thanks for checking me on that, and pointing that out to everyone.
     

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