First ATF ruling of 2015

DC-W · Jan 5, 2015

MAC's take

Vile Shadow · Jan 5, 2015

clandestine said:
I was me. Its all my fault.

Nice of you to step forward and admit it. :lol2:

kalister1 · Jan 5, 2015

Lou45 said:
THIS ^^^^.

Also stated the word "person".

I'd say as long as they don't have any knowledge of it, they're not responsible.

Interesting ^^^.

THIS^^^^^.

They said the word PERSON, as in "Engaged in the Business of....."
If you are the owner of the Business, you are the person.
I read this the same as a C&R holder.
If three guys get together and put their guns together, is that a Business?
I would THINK NOT. BUT: That is just MY opinion.

Scottysan · Jan 5, 2015

clandestine said:
I was me. Its all my fault.

Seems ATF can't ignore you either.
You Must use this power only for good.... :party29:

clandestine · Jan 5, 2015

Sling Blade said:
Nice of you to step forward and admit it.

Scottysan said:
Seems ATF can't ignore you either.
You Must use this power only for good....

awptickes · Jan 5, 2015

Meh. It's a restatement of their previous rulings.

It's not serious. Just don't borrow someone's mill.

It's another case of "poking the bear."

awptickes · Jan 5, 2015

Armati said:
The ruling is pretty clear about "business, society, or association." That said, a group of unaffiliated/unincorporated INDIVIDUALS can still meet-up and have a build party.

What we need is some smart ass to use his local civic center for a build party. Maybe a National Guard armory?

This leads me to a legal question. Say a military organization sets up a unit fund per (for the Army) AR 600-29 and AR 215-1 and as part of the MWR activity buys build equipment and sponsors a build party. Or, uses an MWR machine shop for the same purpose. What rules apply? Is a military organization exempt ATF manufacturing rules in this case?

Uh... You want people to bring firearms on a military installation? I seem to remember a federal law about that.

fabsroman · Jan 5, 2015

iH8DemLibz said:
No more borrowing Billy Bob's lathe and mill.

The way it's written, it could mean lending someone your AR15 tool box so they can complete their rifle from parts.

Now what does "Machinery or Equipment" mean? Exactly! Floor mounted? Electrically powered? Hand tools?

Doesn't mention JB Weld. So I'm good for now.

It mentions "business" a lot in it. So, I am guessing the casual individual that lends tools to a buddy for the buddy to complete an AR build is not in violation of this ruling unless the buddy charges rent.

I bet this ruling is the result of people that had CnC machines set up for people to "rent" them. The renter would merely press a button and then next thing you know, they have a milled lower that they made. Hence, no serial numbers or transfer issues.

KPSpeller · Jan 5, 2015

This letter is intended to address situations like the individual who set up a CNC programed to mill 80% blanked into stripped lowers in a trailer and advertised it for build parties. He had a big button that said push here to start. He claimed that the hobbyist was manufacturing by pushing the button. He claimed he was just renting the machine to the hobbyist.

awptickes · Jan 5, 2015

KPSpeller said:
This letter is intended to address situations like the individual who set up a CNC programed to mill 80% blanked into stripped lowers in a trailer and advertised it for build parties. He had a big button that said push here to start. He claimed that the hobbyist was manufacturing by pushing the button. He claimed he was just renting the machine to the hobbyist.

Exactly. It's a restatement.

Now, if the person who pushed the button actually zeroed the machine, and then uploaded the G-Code, it'd be a bit more tricky...

MigraineMan · Jan 5, 2015

Armati said:
The ruling is pretty clear about "business, society, or association." That said, a group of unaffiliated/unincorporated INDIVIDUALS can still meet-up and have a build party.

I'm pretty certain they would paint us as members of a "society or association" by virtue of participation in this forum. I even have my own login credential that codifies my membership in said association. It would be simple enough to argue that MDS is an "informal association," but an "assocaition" none the less.

18 USC 921 references these terms and others. I find it interesting (in a suspicious sort of way) that they chose the subset they did.

"The term “person” and the term “whoever” include any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, society, or joint stock company. "

iH8DemLibz · Jan 5, 2015

^^^YUP^^^

All depends on how far the ATF and GOV wanted to push it.

embermage · Jan 5, 2015

MigraineMan said:
I'm pretty certain they would paint us as members of a "society or association" by virtue of participation in this forum. I even have my own login credential that codifies my membership in said association. It would be simple enough to argue that MDS is an "informal association," but an "assocaition" none the less.

18 USC 921 references these terms and others. I find it interesting (in a suspicious sort of way) that they chose the subset they did.

Thought we had freedom of association in the 1st Amendment...
Freedom of association is the right to join or leave groups of a person's own choosing, and for the group to take collective action to pursue the interests of members.
The Petition Clause protects the right to petition all branches and agencies of government for action. In addition to the right of assembly guaranteed by this clause, the Court has also ruled that the amendment implicitly protects freedom of association. (from Wikipedia, cheating I know)

john_bud · Jan 5, 2015

embermage said:
Thought we had freedom of association in the 1st Amendment...
Freedom of association is the right to join or leave groups of a person's own choosing, and for the group to take collective action to pursue the interests of members.
The Petition Clause protects the right to petition all branches and agencies of government for action. In addition to the right of assembly guaranteed by this clause, the Court has also ruled that the amendment implicitly protects freedom of association. (from Wikipedia, cheating I know)

Not since obie took office

ironpony · Jan 8, 2015

Does the atf have too much time on their hands?

Vile Shadow · Jan 8, 2015

ironpony said:
Does the atf have too much time on their hands?

Dunno, but I do think that a repeal of the NFA would render them completely obsolete.

RoadDawg · Jan 11, 2015

Inigoes said:
Only if you use the drill press on Home Depot property.

Once you take the drill press home, the BATFE ruling does not apply.

Dammit... I KNEW we would agree on something sooner or later... :cool:

RoadDawg · Jan 11, 2015

fabsroman said:
It mentions "business" a lot in it. So, I am guessing the casual individual that lends tools to a buddy for the buddy to complete an AR build is not in violation of this ruling unless the buddy charges rent.

I bet this ruling is the result of people that had CnC machines set up for people to "rent" them. The renter would merely press a button and then next thing you know, they have a milled lower that they made. Hence, no serial numbers or transfer issues.

I believe that you have summarized the entire issue in a few concise sentences.

RoadDawg · Jan 11, 2015

embermage said:
Thought we had freedom of association in the 1st Amendment...
Freedom of association is the right to join or leave groups of a person's own choosing, and for the group to take collective action to pursue the interests of members.
The Petition Clause protects the right to petition all branches and agencies of government for action. In addition to the right of assembly guaranteed by this clause, the Court has also ruled that the amendment implicitly protects freedom of association. (from Wikipedia, cheating I know)

The freedom of association does not extend to illegal enterprise.

An "association of moonshine producers" for example, is NOT covered under the 1A.

md_rick_o · Jan 11, 2015

This could be interesting, anyone know anything about it?

https://www.inventables.com/technologies/desktop-3d-carving-cnc-mill-kit-shapeoko-2

First ATF ruling of 2015

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