Pistol to SBR back to Pistol?

rouchna · Mar 15, 2018

Question for you guys.

I have a Zenith Z5P in pistol configuration with an SBT folding brace. I was thinking of doing a Form 1 mainly because I love the look of the B&T stock and Vertical fore-grip.
My question is this:

If it becomes an SBR, can I then take the stock off, put the brace back on and take it out of state to shoot? Once back in VA, put the stock back on and it is once again an SBR?

I know that you can go from pistol to rifle, back to pistol. However, filing a form 1 could also be viewed as me making a new rifle. Therefore not being able to make it a pistol again.

My brain hurts thinking about these ridiculous regulations we must follow but I just want to make sure I'm doing this right.

So what say you? Pistol>SBR>Pistol okay?

rayrevolver · Mar 15, 2018

Yes, its only an SBR when in that configuration. With a brace, its a title 1 pistol.

I think the issue is if that was originally a Z-5 rifle made into an SBR. Its either an SBR or rifle, it cannot be a pistol. This is based on the scuttlebutt surrounding ARs and SBRs.

rouchna · Mar 15, 2018

rayrevolver said:
Yes, its only an SBR when in that configuration. With a brace, its a title 1 pistol.

I think the issue is if that was originally a Z-5 rifle made into an SBR. Its either an SBR or rifle, it cannot be a pistol. This is based on the scuttlebutt surrounding ARs and SBRs.

Thanks. But when you Form 1 a pistol, you are making a rifle. Rifle to pistol is a no no. That’s my main concern.

Mdeng · Mar 15, 2018

The receiver is registered as an SBR no matter what configuration it is in. You will need to file an ATF Form 20 to interstate transport it. Form 20 PDF

outrider58 · Mar 15, 2018

Mdeng said:
The receiver is registered as an SBR no matter what configuration it is in. You will need to file an ATF Form 20 to interstate transport it. Form 20 PDF

I don't think it is an SBR if it isn't in that configuration. You can SBR a lower and not build it. It is not an SBR. IANAL

Mdeng · Mar 15, 2018

outrider58 said:
I don't think it is an SBR if it isn't in that configuration. You can SBR a lower and not build it. It is not an SBR. IANAL

Glad you are not a lawyer.

outrider58 · Mar 15, 2018

Mdeng said:
Glad you are not a lawyer.

O k

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

outrider58 · Mar 15, 2018

Mdeng said:
Glad you are not a lawyer.

My interpretation of what Nate once said...

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Mdeng · Mar 15, 2018

The form 20 is an easy way to make sure your legal ass is covered. The only caveat to remember is the registered Title 2 device ( SBR, SBS, Suppressor or Machine Gun) must be legal in the states you wish to transport through and to.

I file a new form every year so that I can take my Title 2 firearms to VA and PA.

rouchna · Mar 15, 2018

Mdeng said:
The form 20 is an easy way to make sure your legal ass is covered. The only caveat to remember is the registered Title 2 device ( SBR, SBS, Suppressor or Machine Gun) must be legal in the states you wish to transport through and to.

I file a new form every year so that I can take my Title 2 firearms to VA and PA.

I understand form 20s as I have plenty of SBRs and SBSs. My question has to do with going back to a pistol. I know that if I take a registered SBR receiver and put a 16” upper on it, it is no longer an SBR...and that is per the ATF.
My question is regarding Pistol configuration to SBR back to pistol.

NateIU10 · Mar 15, 2018

outrider58 said:
I don't think it is an SBR if it isn't in that configuration. You can SBR a lower and not build it. It is not an SBR. IANAL

You are correct. A firearm that is registered as an NFA firearm is no longer an NFA firearm once it no longer meets the NFA definition of “firearm.” I’m on my cell at the moment, but there is plenty of guidance out there regarding ATF’s position in this area.

I liken it to Title I firearms. If you buy a rifle and disassemble it so there is only a receiver, what is it to a dealer you sell it to?

rouchna · Mar 15, 2018

NateIU10 said:
You are correct. A firearm that is registered as an NFA firearm is no longer an NFA firearm once it no longer meets the NFA definition of “firearm.” I’m on my cell at the moment, but there is plenty of guidance out there regarding ATF’s position in this area.

I liken it to Title I firearms. If you buy a rifle and disassemble it so there is only a receiver, what is it to a dealer you sell it to?

Nate, so MP5 pistol to SBR back to Pistol is okay? As in I can put the brace back on it temporarily and take it to an out of state range?

Mdeng · Mar 15, 2018

NateIU10 said:
You are correct. A firearm that is registered as an NFA firearm is no longer an NFA firearm once it no longer meets the NFA definition of “firearm.” I’m on my cell at the moment, but there is plenty of guidance out there regarding ATF’s position in this area.

I liken it to Title I firearms. If you buy a rifle and disassemble it so there is only a receiver, what is it to a dealer you sell it to?

The funny thing is you are the person that told me I need to file the form 20 when I first converted my AR pistol to an SBR. I even asked about removing the stock. Oh well guess things change, it has been a while.

NateIU10 · Mar 16, 2018

rouchna said:
Nate, so MP5 pistol to SBR back to Pistol is okay? As in I can put the brace back on it temporarily and take it to an out of state range?

I would say yes, personally, but you can always ask ATF.

This is in regards to Title 1, but you may want to look at:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/r...red-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download

ATF's FAQs used to list this:

Q: May I transfer the receiver of a short-barrel rifle or shotgun to an FFL or to an individual as I would any GCA firearm?
A: Yes. A weapon that does not meet the definition of a NFA firearm is not subject to the NFA and a possessor or transferor needn't comply with NFA requirements. The firearm is considered a GCA firearm and may be transferred under the provisions of that law.

Q: Who is responsible for notifying the NFA Branch when I transfer the GCA firearm to a FFL or another individual?
A: There is no requirement that the transferor or transferee of a GCA firearm notify the NFA branch of a transfer or that either party determine whether the firearm was previously registered under the NFA. There is no also no requirement for the registrant or possessor of a NFA firearm to notify ATF of the removal of features that caused the firearm to be subject to the NFA; however, ATF recommends the owner notify the NFA Branch in writing if a firearm is permanently removed from the NFA.

Q: What is the registered part of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)?
A: While a receiver alone may be classified as a firearm under the Gun Control Act (GCA), SBRs and SBSs are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (NFA). A firearm that meets the definition of a SBR consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. A SBS consists of a shotgun that has a barrel less than 18 inches in length. The serialized receiver is recorded for registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR).

Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS?
A: A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer.

Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?
A: If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.

Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?
A: Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.

They have removed a lot of FAQs but there are some here still that may be useful:

https://www.atf.gov/qa-category/nfa-non-licensees

Mdeng said:
The funny thing is you are the person that told me I need to file the form 20 when I first converted my AR pistol to an SBR. I even asked about removing the stock. Oh well guess things change, it has been a while.

Yo no se

rouchna · Mar 16, 2018

NateIU10 said:
I would say yes, personally, but you can always ask ATF.

This is in regards to Title 1, but you may want to look at:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/r...red-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download

ATF's FAQs used to list this:

They have removed a lot of FAQs but there are some here still that may be useful:

https://www.atf.gov/qa-category/nfa-non-licensees

Yo no se

Thank you very much. This was very helpful. :thumbsup:

SwerveAM · Mar 22, 2018

This made my night as I am going to be moving to CA soon.

Pistol to SBR back to Pistol?

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Defund the ATF

Active Member

Defund the ATF

Ultimate Member

Eats Bacon Raw

Ultimate Member

Eats Bacon Raw

Eats Bacon Raw

Ultimate Member

Defund the ATF

Ultimate Member

Defund the ATF

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

Defund the ATF

Member

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics