OATH Expanding and Fragmenting Slugs
- Thread starter matt1
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- Dec 20, 2013
- 12,340
I may have to try some of their slugs out.
Their Tango cartridges also look like they may spoil some miscreant's day.
If they produce a subsonic Tango, I'll be on board with those as well.
Their Tango cartridges also look like they may spoil some miscreant's day.
If they produce a subsonic Tango, I'll be on board with those as well.
TomisinMd
Ultimate Member
Awesome looking round! But for defense? Not in marylandistan for me. Shoot an intruder with these and I bet I'm going away for a long long time.
- Dec 20, 2013
- 12,340
In general, your point is well-taken. But as long as you can prove you shot in [justifiable] self defense, these shouldn't cause you any more legal trouble than most other good (i.e., tissue-damaging) hollow points.
Show me a single case where the ammo was an issue in a clean defensive shoot. One.
We'll never really get a direct answer to that question, at least from reading court records. The fear isn't the choice of ammo or other goodies affecting the binary guilty vs. not guilty determination, rather, we need to hear from a host of criminal and civil defense attorneys whose tell us of clients who endured added time, aggravation and expense defending non-traditional defense choices. I cannot hypothesize every line of attack an aggressive prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney may choose. Rather than do that, I try to be as plain vanilla as possible, and not stand out for making off-beat choices. Part of that means using the tools LEOs use, at least in regard to guns and ammo...and don't look like a mall ninja.
It's a case of BGOS. People being worried about after-market triggers, ammo etc. if you intend to pull the trigger, and intend to hit the attacker center mass, and you intend to incapacitate that person, mission accomplished. My HD gun is a suppressed short barreled AR with a suppressor chambered in .300 BLK loaded with Hornady A-max 220 grain rounds. I have a 40 round magazine. It has a red dot and a 1000 lumen light. It also has a Geissele trigger. If I shoot someone (God forbid), it's because that is my intention. I protected my family. Did I carefully consider the configuration of my HD firearm? Absolutely I did. I configured it to meet my potential needs. Did I choose ammo that I thought would incapacitate an attacker? Yep, sure did. Did I keep firing until there was no longer a threat? Yep. Did I train to do that? Yep. If my family is safe, I did my job. Am I worried about being convicted for killing someone in my house? Not at all.
Jollyllama
Ultimate Member
Jollyllama
Ultimate Member
Sorry to derail. I agree with the Doctor. And those rounds look pretty awesome.
Trying not to kill another thread here.
Trying not to kill another thread here.
jimbobborg
Oddball caliber fan
How much are these per round?
Kilroy
Ultimate Member
- Jul 27, 2011
- 3,069
They brought it up in Zimmerman's case. Those evil expanding hollow point bullets...
Didn't make a difference, did it? I bet if Zimmerman were in his home there never would have been a trial. I can cite scholarly articles on stopping power and defensive ammo.
Maybe it did make a difference, just not in a readily apparent way. I reiterate what I said above, while it did not affect the guilty/not guilty determination, we need to ask Zim or his attorney how many hours he may have spent addressing the ammo issue. If his attorney spent 5 hours dealing with the ammo question, and he bills himself out at $400 per hour, Zim was out $2K in additional legal fees because of the ammo choice. If an expert witness needed to be hired, then Zim's expenses to defend were even higher.
I just look at all the choices I can make that help or hurt in this regard, and decide whether or not they are worth it. Hollow point ammo is the most effective ammo for the job and is worth the potential aggravation. OTOH, having "Molon Labe" engraved on my defense lower does not enhance its performance and, IMHO, is not worth the potential aggravation. My personal goal is to be as close to "soccer-mom approved" as I can get, since that is the kind of jury my opponent shall try and seat, and he shall use that as leverage against me to obtain a plea or settlement. These are things to consider.
ETA: I reread the choices you made for your defense set up, and IMHO, they are practical things that increase your chances of prevailing in a defensive encounter. To my reckoning, that's good. You did not include things that do nothing to materially to improve your odds of survival, yet do increase a prosecutor's/plaintiff's attorney's hook into your liberty or checkbook.
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Yes. SBR for maneuverability, suppressor so I don't blow out my ear drums in a hallway, 1000 lumen light to see what I am shooting at/disorient an attacker. Good ammo that will neutralize an attacker, and plenty of it in case I miss. I could be an obese naked man whose slumber was interrupted. Again, I can cite references indicating that all of these things are useful. I doubt I will ever have to use it, but if put in that situation I plan on prevailing. I'll worry about the rest later.
Yes. SBR for maneuverability, suppressor so I don't blow out my ear drums in a hallway, 1000 lumen light to see what I am shooting at/disorient an attacker. Good ammo that will neutralize an attacker, and plenty of it in case I miss. I could be an obese naked man whose slumber was interrupted. Again, I can cite references indicating that all of these things are useful. I doubt I will ever have to use it, but if put in that situation I plan on prevailing. I'll worry about the rest later.
That probably applies to many of us, doc!
That probably applies to many of us, doc!
That might be enough to scare them away.
DutchV
Ultimate Member
- Jul 8, 2012
- 4,730
Back on topic: Something tells me that a 2.25 oz slug is a new thing for shotguns, whether the design is new or not. I bet recoil will be an issue.
Its total energy is the same, so there should be no change in recoil.
- Dec 20, 2013
- 12,340
TomisinMd
Ultimate Member
I can't, or won't bother to look it up. I have seen prosecutors try for premeditation with even using hollow points.
Just my personal preference so I'll refuse to get all defensive. Go ahead and use them if you want.
In this state? Not a frikkin chance with me.
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