Yoshi
Invictus
Anyone have experience with either of these?
Want to get into ELR matches and am considering one.
Want to get into ELR matches and am considering one.
6.5 SAUM vs 6.5 PRC
- Thread starter Yoshi
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davsco
Ultimate Member
https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/6-5-prc.6447180/page-2
BIL is getting a PRC (seekins havoc). sounds like a nice round and at least a couple of factory ammo choices (match and hunting).
BIL is getting a PRC (seekins havoc). sounds like a nice round and at least a couple of factory ammo choices (match and hunting).
- Aug 17, 2011
- 26,177
What's to be gained over the .260?
Honestly curious, as I haven't heard much about the SAUM or PRC.
Honestly curious, as I haven't heard much about the SAUM or PRC.
steves1911
Ultimate Member
I think the 6.5prc is going to catch on with ruger backing it and chambering rifles for it. The rsaum is sweet too but brass could become tough to find. Either should do great for what your looking for.
davsco
Ultimate Member
yeah the ballistics are almost identical between 6.5-284 and 6.5PRC
By the time you get a load worked out you get 800 rounds down the tube before you have to set it back lol
Is 6.5prc the one Hornady just came out with? Or am I think of a different 6.5? It had seemed kind of interesting to me (it I am thinking of the Hornady one). About 200-300fps faster than 6.5 creedmore, which puts it slightly over .308 energy/recoil and slightly less than .30-06. But way better long distance performance. A little better than .300 win mag, right?
davsco
Ultimate Member
yes, hornady. but no, the 300 mags have a ton of energy left at 400 yds while the 6.5prc (and 6.5-284, and 7 rem mag) have a ton left at 300 yds.
PoPo3
Active Member
I will let you know in a few months what the PRC is all about. I have all the components, just waiting on the reamer and go gauge. I always said that I would not do an over bored 6.5, but this one tickled my fancy.
Yoshi
Invictus
Will be very interested in your results.
PoPo3
Active Member
It’s a bartlein barrel 7.5 twist, rem LA, Manson reamer with .188” freebore and will sit in a grayboe renegade stock once it is complete. I will keep this thread updated.
Jerry M
Ultimate Member
Some are saying that the PRC needs a long action for optimum performance, like the 6.5 Remington Magnum and 6.5X284.
Good luck
Jerry
Good luck
Jerry
Depends on your reamer/bullet choice. Like the 6.5-284 Norma chambering (as opposed to the 6.5-284 Win chambering, which is typically throated short), the PRC could benefit from being housed in a "medium" or "long" action. As I am not a 264 bore guy, I can't say which is better. Given current circs, I'd probably opt for the RSAUM case if forced to pick one as you get choices other than Hornady for brass and there are some really good off-the-shelf dies for the 6.5rsaum/6.5gap/7rsaum cases out there. A friend of mine just got a Havak in PRC and it shoots ok, but it strings badly as it heats (go figure, its a hunting rifle).
Depending on what distance you mean by ELR, the old 284 win with a long action friendly throat and its wildcat variants (284 shehane, etc.) all offer better downrange performance than the 264s of similar case capacity. I can say from experience that the 243 and 264 rounds just don't have the momentum (as opposed to energy) at longer ranges to smack heavy steel with enough authority for spotters at tactical type matches to see every hit. I have seen guys drop points because the hits werent visible. Also, the wind corrections on the 284 will be less at longer ranges. Compare a 180 hybrid 284 to a 140 class 264 in the same form factor (case size) and see where you get. Shiraz Balolia and others are successfully shooting the 7rsaum (with others preferring the 7wsm) in F-Open and I have seen one or two rsaum shooters in the tac world too. They pay a recoil penalty but they rock the plates harder and they generally hold less wind on the really long shots.
Depending on what distance you mean by ELR, the old 284 win with a long action friendly throat and its wildcat variants (284 shehane, etc.) all offer better downrange performance than the 264s of similar case capacity. I can say from experience that the 243 and 264 rounds just don't have the momentum (as opposed to energy) at longer ranges to smack heavy steel with enough authority for spotters at tactical type matches to see every hit. I have seen guys drop points because the hits werent visible. Also, the wind corrections on the 284 will be less at longer ranges. Compare a 180 hybrid 284 to a 140 class 264 in the same form factor (case size) and see where you get. Shiraz Balolia and others are successfully shooting the 7rsaum (with others preferring the 7wsm) in F-Open and I have seen one or two rsaum shooters in the tac world too. They pay a recoil penalty but they rock the plates harder and they generally hold less wind on the really long shots.
Biggfoot44
Ultimate Member
- Aug 2, 2009
- 33,108
Ok , I seem to have blinked , and overlooked a " new ' class of ctgs . Bring me up to speed on 6.5 PRC , 6.5 SAUM , 6.5 SAUM 4S , etc .
Are these essentially reinventing the .264Win with different twist and throat length ?
Why not 6.5-06 or 6.5-06AI ?
What's the meaningful difference between this class of ctg compared to the gazillion 7mm choices, various 6mm large wildcats , or .257 W'by ?
Are these essentially reinventing the .264Win with different twist and throat length ?
Why not 6.5-06 or 6.5-06AI ?
What's the meaningful difference between this class of ctg compared to the gazillion 7mm choices, various 6mm large wildcats , or .257 W'by ?
PoPo3
Active Member
Bigfoot....I will do my best to answer your questions, mostly with my opinions. I do believe they are reinventing the 264s of old. Different case, but the end result is similar. I chose the PRC because it is being backed by hornady. That means (at least for the near future), available brass AND loaded ammunition that doesn’t break the bank. The comp i shoot in has a “speed limit” of 3100 FPS. I will get close to that with a very high BC bullet (.700+). I don’t know of too many 7mm bullets/ctgs that offer a 700+ BC and can attain close to 3100 FPS without getting into the RUM/STW arena. With those velocities can suffer because of stuffing a long bullet inside a huge case so it fits in a magazine. Also, recoil is much more substantial. Lastly, I had a magnum action lying around and I’m a 6.5 fan. Lol
ok, in order.
The 6.5 short mags that you name (rsaum and prc and their various wildcat derivatives) were designed to offer magnum performance in a short action form factor. this idea (to my knowledge) dates to the 6.5 rem mag (an ill fated and relatively obscure cartridge these days). in terms of case capacity, these rounds are very close to both the 6.5-284 (norma spec) and the 30-06 family. the edge goes to the WSMs (slightly larger) with the RSAUM cases being 5-8% larger in internal volume than the equivalent bore done in either a 284 or 30-06 parent case. the advantage is that they fit in short actions. the cost is fewer rounds in the mag (internal or detachable). An extended AICS pattern magazine typically holds 12-14rounds of .473 case head ammo (that would be 308 and 6.5 creed). The same size magazine typically holds around 9 short action magnum rounds. Another point on the short mags; the RSAUM case and the PRC case give you more room in front of the case mouth for bullets to stick out that the WSM, as well as a slightly longer neck. All this will play into the reamer design you select.
These rounds are not truly reinventing the 264 win mag, as its case offers an 18-20% increase in useful case capacity over the 6.5-284 and the 6.5-06. The 264, with modern powders and bullets, can actually live up to the original marketing hype as far as speed. This is possible with slow burning propellants and very good, long, barrels. To truly notice the difference, you will need to use a barrel of significant length and burn very slow powders. As far as throat length goes, the 264wm typically had a long throat to boost velocity, soften recoil, and accommodate the blunt nosed 160gr bullets that were available.
Why not 6.5-06 or 6.5-06 Ackley? No reason. Do either of them. The 6.5-06 is a very underrated round that offers some advantages over the 6.5-284, especially if one is a hunter and does not want to buy premium brass. It has lived a quiet but successful life on 1000yd prone ranges in addition to its triumphs in the game fields. I would select the Ackley variant as I like Ackleys and hate trimming brass but keep in mind that this comes at the cost of a more expensive die set and fireforming. I am not troubled by fireforming as I do it without a bullet and have yet to see any detriment to barrel life using such a method. Your feelings and experience may be different on this subject. Both of these rounds require a long action but so does the 6.5-284 norma when loaded with heavy for caliber projectiles.
Your last question is complex but here goes: There is little difference in the real life performance of these rounds and some of their equivalent seven millimeter cousins. I know I will hear a ton of disagreement on that score, but I submit that when one runs the ballistics of these rounds WHEN TUNED FOR BEST ACCURACY, they are very close indeed. I know more than a couple shooters using 6.5-284 for 1000YD match and I know not one that breaks 3000fps with a 140 class bullet. They warned me when I considered one that Bergers would not stand the speed. In fact, one uses Nosler 140 class pills and most others I have spoken with prefer Sierra as these bullets have a thicker, tougher, jacket. The conventional wisdom on the 140 6.5s (larger cases) is to run them somewhere in the 2950 range. The only 6.5 RSAUM shooter I know runs his in about this same speed range. While higher speeds are CERTAINLY possible, they come at the cost of reduced barrel life and (generally) poorer precision. I personally and NOT a 6.5 guy so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I would opt, in a short action magnum case to be used for hunting or tactical applications, for a 7RSAUM, throat for 160 class bullets seated to mag length, and a Krieger or Bartlein finished at 26" mounting a can. If I was taking most of my shots outside of 1000yd, I would abandon the smallbores altogether and move to a 375 or 408 bore, but that is another discussion all its own. In a prone match rifle, I have plans to do a 284 or one of its improved variants. I won't accept the short barrel life of the 6.5 rounds of larger case capacity that we have been discussing as I do not wish to constantly change my seating length (even in a rifle that is single shot and I am not worried about mag length) because mistakes in this area cost points. I would prefer to eat a bit more recoil (such guns cannot use brakes or cans) and use the 7mm bullets in the 180 class. In a real-life shootout, we shot a 300win mag with 220SMKs, a 30-06 using 210ABLRs (at 2730), and a 284 with 180 Hybrids at a grand. All shooters fired at same time, same cadence and did not hold for wind (center hold all rounds). The 284 shot the narrowest "weather report". I decided that day what my next long action match barrel would be.
On the 6s, there are some great large case 6 rounds. The 6Rem AI comes to mind, as a good friend is working with one now. It is a long action 700, fully worked over but not sleeved, set up as a single shot. It sports a 9 twist Bartlein finished at 26 with a suppressor. It is a HAMMER. Using 90 Accubonds I have watched 3450 on the chrono and the primers are flat but there are no craters and the case shows no head damage. This is a deer control and incidental coyote/groundhog rig, not a long range match gun. The barrel will never see 22 round strings of fire (F Class) or a chaos stage (PRS, etc). The 6mms will take out barrels even faster than their 6.5 cousins in a case of similar capacity, especially if you get them very hot.
The 257 weatherby is a great hunting round but you are limited by the fact that only in the very recent years have any bbl makers done production 25 cal tubes in a twist other than 10. The lack of suitable heavy-for-caliber bullets is also a handicap. One or two companies produce them on a small basis but I would question the utility of such an option. If that bullet you waited for does not shoot, what do you do? I know a guy that uses this chambering on deer with stellar results (110AB) out to 600 or so. The same guy uses a 280AI at even longer ranges as the bullet is larger (150ABLR) and the wind calls much easier. Different tools for different jobs. The 257WBY rides around in the truck because it is flatter and easier to snapshoot at the closer ranges.
Hope this helps out.
Good shooting.
The 6.5 short mags that you name (rsaum and prc and their various wildcat derivatives) were designed to offer magnum performance in a short action form factor. this idea (to my knowledge) dates to the 6.5 rem mag (an ill fated and relatively obscure cartridge these days). in terms of case capacity, these rounds are very close to both the 6.5-284 (norma spec) and the 30-06 family. the edge goes to the WSMs (slightly larger) with the RSAUM cases being 5-8% larger in internal volume than the equivalent bore done in either a 284 or 30-06 parent case. the advantage is that they fit in short actions. the cost is fewer rounds in the mag (internal or detachable). An extended AICS pattern magazine typically holds 12-14rounds of .473 case head ammo (that would be 308 and 6.5 creed). The same size magazine typically holds around 9 short action magnum rounds. Another point on the short mags; the RSAUM case and the PRC case give you more room in front of the case mouth for bullets to stick out that the WSM, as well as a slightly longer neck. All this will play into the reamer design you select.
These rounds are not truly reinventing the 264 win mag, as its case offers an 18-20% increase in useful case capacity over the 6.5-284 and the 6.5-06. The 264, with modern powders and bullets, can actually live up to the original marketing hype as far as speed. This is possible with slow burning propellants and very good, long, barrels. To truly notice the difference, you will need to use a barrel of significant length and burn very slow powders. As far as throat length goes, the 264wm typically had a long throat to boost velocity, soften recoil, and accommodate the blunt nosed 160gr bullets that were available.
Why not 6.5-06 or 6.5-06 Ackley? No reason. Do either of them. The 6.5-06 is a very underrated round that offers some advantages over the 6.5-284, especially if one is a hunter and does not want to buy premium brass. It has lived a quiet but successful life on 1000yd prone ranges in addition to its triumphs in the game fields. I would select the Ackley variant as I like Ackleys and hate trimming brass but keep in mind that this comes at the cost of a more expensive die set and fireforming. I am not troubled by fireforming as I do it without a bullet and have yet to see any detriment to barrel life using such a method. Your feelings and experience may be different on this subject. Both of these rounds require a long action but so does the 6.5-284 norma when loaded with heavy for caliber projectiles.
Your last question is complex but here goes: There is little difference in the real life performance of these rounds and some of their equivalent seven millimeter cousins. I know I will hear a ton of disagreement on that score, but I submit that when one runs the ballistics of these rounds WHEN TUNED FOR BEST ACCURACY, they are very close indeed. I know more than a couple shooters using 6.5-284 for 1000YD match and I know not one that breaks 3000fps with a 140 class bullet. They warned me when I considered one that Bergers would not stand the speed. In fact, one uses Nosler 140 class pills and most others I have spoken with prefer Sierra as these bullets have a thicker, tougher, jacket. The conventional wisdom on the 140 6.5s (larger cases) is to run them somewhere in the 2950 range. The only 6.5 RSAUM shooter I know runs his in about this same speed range. While higher speeds are CERTAINLY possible, they come at the cost of reduced barrel life and (generally) poorer precision. I personally and NOT a 6.5 guy so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I would opt, in a short action magnum case to be used for hunting or tactical applications, for a 7RSAUM, throat for 160 class bullets seated to mag length, and a Krieger or Bartlein finished at 26" mounting a can. If I was taking most of my shots outside of 1000yd, I would abandon the smallbores altogether and move to a 375 or 408 bore, but that is another discussion all its own. In a prone match rifle, I have plans to do a 284 or one of its improved variants. I won't accept the short barrel life of the 6.5 rounds of larger case capacity that we have been discussing as I do not wish to constantly change my seating length (even in a rifle that is single shot and I am not worried about mag length) because mistakes in this area cost points. I would prefer to eat a bit more recoil (such guns cannot use brakes or cans) and use the 7mm bullets in the 180 class. In a real-life shootout, we shot a 300win mag with 220SMKs, a 30-06 using 210ABLRs (at 2730), and a 284 with 180 Hybrids at a grand. All shooters fired at same time, same cadence and did not hold for wind (center hold all rounds). The 284 shot the narrowest "weather report". I decided that day what my next long action match barrel would be.
On the 6s, there are some great large case 6 rounds. The 6Rem AI comes to mind, as a good friend is working with one now. It is a long action 700, fully worked over but not sleeved, set up as a single shot. It sports a 9 twist Bartlein finished at 26 with a suppressor. It is a HAMMER. Using 90 Accubonds I have watched 3450 on the chrono and the primers are flat but there are no craters and the case shows no head damage. This is a deer control and incidental coyote/groundhog rig, not a long range match gun. The barrel will never see 22 round strings of fire (F Class) or a chaos stage (PRS, etc). The 6mms will take out barrels even faster than their 6.5 cousins in a case of similar capacity, especially if you get them very hot.
The 257 weatherby is a great hunting round but you are limited by the fact that only in the very recent years have any bbl makers done production 25 cal tubes in a twist other than 10. The lack of suitable heavy-for-caliber bullets is also a handicap. One or two companies produce them on a small basis but I would question the utility of such an option. If that bullet you waited for does not shoot, what do you do? I know a guy that uses this chambering on deer with stellar results (110AB) out to 600 or so. The same guy uses a 280AI at even longer ranges as the bullet is larger (150ABLR) and the wind calls much easier. Different tools for different jobs. The 257WBY rides around in the truck because it is flatter and easier to snapshoot at the closer ranges.
Hope this helps out.
Good shooting.
Biggfoot44
Ultimate Member
- Aug 2, 2009
- 33,108
Thanks .
Innovation is good & knowledge is enlightening . Repeat to self three times . Sure seems the whole quest involves " the absolute most bestest " for a couple of criteria ( flatIST trajectory , mostIST 1000yd energy, lestIST recoil ) with zero weight given to everything else .
Reading briefly thru the various fora discussing such things, I kept seeing things like unable to do an OCW ladder, because too much throat erosion while doing the ladder , and people extoling a 700rd barrel life as a good thing . ( Do the rules for this Match series explicitly * Require * a short action ? I saw about as may reports of these things being built on long actions as short .)
******************
Interesting trivia that stuck in my mind - The 7mm SAUM ( stock form ) has exactly the same capacity as .280Rem AI .( For our members who aren't of a certain age , the .280 AI is very well regarded as being a very worthwhile , very effecent ctg .)
Innovation is good & knowledge is enlightening . Repeat to self three times . Sure seems the whole quest involves " the absolute most bestest " for a couple of criteria ( flatIST trajectory , mostIST 1000yd energy, lestIST recoil ) with zero weight given to everything else .
Reading briefly thru the various fora discussing such things, I kept seeing things like unable to do an OCW ladder, because too much throat erosion while doing the ladder , and people extoling a 700rd barrel life as a good thing . ( Do the rules for this Match series explicitly * Require * a short action ? I saw about as may reports of these things being built on long actions as short .)
******************
Interesting trivia that stuck in my mind - The 7mm SAUM ( stock form ) has exactly the same capacity as .280Rem AI .( For our members who aren't of a certain age , the .280 AI is very well regarded as being a very worthwhile , very effecent ctg .)
280AI is a great round. These days, it is SAAMI approved (thanks, Nosler) and you can purchase both brass and loaded ammo for it.
No match I know of restricts action length. Most PRS type steel plate matches restrict caliber (usually 30 or smaller) and speed (this limit varies by range but is often around 3150).
As I mentioned, I am unwilling to put up with the nasty throat erosion problems the big case 6 and 6.5s suffer when you get them hot. I know a guy who built a wildcat for a customer based on a 7mm Rem Mag modified and necked down to 6mm. The barrels did not last long. There is an interesting legend regarding load development by Hornady for the 6.5-284. The story goes that the realized they had a problem when maximum charges for 140s exceeded max charges for 120s. Evidently, their testing eroded the test barrel sufficiently with the lighter bullets that the resultant freebore gave the heavies quite a long jump! I have no idea if it is true but, given what I have seen in hot 6mms and heard from others regarding hot 6.5s, I would be inclined to believe it happened that way. This is best summed up by a good 'smith I know: "There's no free ride."
No match I know of restricts action length. Most PRS type steel plate matches restrict caliber (usually 30 or smaller) and speed (this limit varies by range but is often around 3150).
As I mentioned, I am unwilling to put up with the nasty throat erosion problems the big case 6 and 6.5s suffer when you get them hot. I know a guy who built a wildcat for a customer based on a 7mm Rem Mag modified and necked down to 6mm. The barrels did not last long. There is an interesting legend regarding load development by Hornady for the 6.5-284. The story goes that the realized they had a problem when maximum charges for 140s exceeded max charges for 120s. Evidently, their testing eroded the test barrel sufficiently with the lighter bullets that the resultant freebore gave the heavies quite a long jump! I have no idea if it is true but, given what I have seen in hot 6mms and heard from others regarding hot 6.5s, I would be inclined to believe it happened that way. This is best summed up by a good 'smith I know: "There's no free ride."
Biggfoot44
Ultimate Member
- Aug 2, 2009
- 33,108
Heck , at one point the 6.5- 300WM ( full length) was a hot set up for the 1,000yd benchrest guys .
But the two limiting factors are throat errosion , and powder speed . The really, really overbore ctgs are dependent upon small lots of intermittently available surplus powders . Limiting oneself to standard commercially available powders in the same class as H1000 sets an upper limit of very diminishing returns .
But the two limiting factors are throat errosion , and powder speed . The really, really overbore ctgs are dependent upon small lots of intermittently available surplus powders . Limiting oneself to standard commercially available powders in the same class as H1000 sets an upper limit of very diminishing returns .
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