Marines looking at the 1911 again

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  • mikec

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 1, 2007
    11,453
    Off I-83
    1911s are great guns. for those that have not shot them, they dont hold 7 rounds, they hold 9; thats one less then the previously mentioned m&p.

    That depends on the mag and how you carry the gun. The original GI mag was a 7 round mag. Most soldiers carried their 1911 hammer down on an empty chamber. How a Force Recon soldier carries his 1911, I do not know. I also don't know if they are buying 7 or 8 round mags.
     

    goneshootin88

    Active Member
    Sep 22, 2009
    670
    MOCO
    Having a nice trigger isn't important to hitting what you shoot at, especially in a stressful situation?

    What makes the guns you mentioned "super reliable?"

    Double the capacity? You either hit what you shoot at or you don't.

    Yes a trigger is important, but please come up with any modern combat weapon that has a trigger pull at less than 6 pounds for the initial shot and also has second strike capability. And as for super reliable how about
    http://pistol-training.com/archives/4027
    If you don't want to read the link, the highlights are:
    HK 45
    50000 rounds in 8 months
    Only cleaned 7 times
    1 Stopage
    1 malfunction
    1 broken spring
    31522 rounds before a single issue arose
    I think I'll be waiting a long time before someone can show me a documented 1911 test that comes close.
    Also modern guns do not require hand fitting for the gun to properly function. They drop right in. As I said before, I like my Colt a lot. But it lives in the safe not next to my bed.
     

    trbon8r

    Ultimate Member
    If this logic was valid we'd still be using 5 round bolt actions. The 1911 is a single action dinosaur as outdated as matchlocks. It might make a nice range gun but it has no place in modern combat. It had its day but that day loooong past. If we absolutely MUST have a .45, we need to give HK a call.

    So what makes these new wonder guns so much better? Do tell. I'm all ears.
     

    mikec

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 1, 2007
    11,453
    Off I-83
    Well, don't USMC snipers use a bolt gun? Again, specialty weapons for special units/assignments. They don't issue the bolt guns to the average grunt.
     

    trbon8r

    Ultimate Member
    Yes a trigger is important, but please come up with any modern combat weapon that has a trigger pull at less than 6 pounds for the initial shot and also has second strike capability. And as for super reliable how about
    http://pistol-training.com/archives/4027
    If you don't want to read the link, the highlights are:
    HK 45
    50000 rounds in 8 months
    Only cleaned 7 times
    1 Stopage
    1 malfunction
    1 broken spring
    31522 rounds before a single issue arose
    I think I'll be waiting a long time before someone can show me a documented 1911 test that comes close.
    Also modern guns do not require hand fitting for the gun to properly function. They drop right in. As I said before, I like my Colt a lot. But it lives in the safe not next to my bed.

    I never will understand the fascination that mall ninjas have with not cleaning a gun until it finally fails. I couldn't care if an HK or 1911 goes 50k rounds without cleaning. What kind of moron never cleans their guns they depend on to work when they need them?

    I guess those HKs must use some kind of magic ammo that doesn't get the gun dirty like those nasty 1911s. :rolleyes:
     

    goneshootin88

    Active Member
    Sep 22, 2009
    670
    MOCO
    I never will understand the fascination that mall ninjas have with not cleaning a gun until it finally fails. I couldn't care if an HK or 1911 goes 50k rounds without cleaning. What kind of moron never cleans their guns they depend on to work when they need them?

    I guess those HKs must use some kind of magic ammo that doesn't get the gun dirty like those nasty 1911s. :rolleyes:

    Really? That's what you take away from that? How about the fact that only a tiny trigger return spring broke in 50000 rounds? You wanted evidence of superior reliability and that sir is it. Please show me some imperical evidence of a 1911 doing close to that. I can tell you're a die hard 1911 guy, that's cool I like them too. But they simply do not compare to modern handguns that are specifically designed for combat. One of the members here was attached to a Marine special warfare group in Afganistan and carried a 1911. He has told me several times he would never buy one and that they had trouble with them over there. We aren't talking about range guns or even guns for CCW. These guns will be going overseas with the brave worriors that protect this country. Shouldn't they have the best tool for their job?
     

    HT4

    Dum spiro spero.
    Jan 24, 2012
    2,728
    Bethesda
    The fact that you even ask that question shows that you're beyond my ability to explain it.

    +1

    So what makes these new wonder guns so much better? Do tell. I'm all ears.

    Are you serious? The answer is pretty much everything that makes a combat handgun desirable. They provide more firepower, are more reliable, more durable, easier to strip and easier to use. Is that not enough? The new ones are also easier and cheaper to produce. If all you can point to is a superior trigger on the 1911, I would respond as follows. First, there is no way in hell that the US military specs out a pistol with a crisp and light trigger pull. There would be too many ADs. Second, most soldiers lack the handgun shooting skills that would allow them to take advantage of a fine trigger. The training programs simply are not in place. The people who do have those honed skills would not be held back by a mushy trigger. Third, the military spec handguns invariably have crap min accuracy requirements, so it's not clear that a better trigger would improve overall accuracy. Fourth, modern combat handgun triggers are easily and cheaply fixed, if the military wants to do so. For example, a new sear does wonders for the M&P's.
     

    trbon8r

    Ultimate Member
    Really? That's what you take away from that? How about the fact that only a tiny trigger return spring broke in 50000 rounds? You wanted evidence of superior reliability and that sir is it. Please show me some imperical evidence of a 1911 doing close to that. I can tell you're a die hard 1911 guy, that's cool I like them too. But they simply do not compare to modern handguns that are specifically designed for combat. One of the members here was attached to a Marine special warfare group in Afganistan and carried a 1911. He has told me several times he would never buy one and that they had trouble with them over there. We aren't talking about range guns or even guns for CCW. These guns will be going overseas with the brave worriors that protect this country. Shouldn't they have the best tool for their job?

    While you are talking to some anonymous jerkweed about his experience with his 1911s, and reading some dubious internet report, I've actually been shooting 1911s for the last 20 years. Mine don't break, and they work every time I pull the trigger.

    During the original government tests the 1911 went 6k rounds with zero malfunctions while being shot as fast as possible with a bucket brigade loading magazines. When the gun got hot they dunked it in a bucket of cold water, cooled it and shot it some more. The gun was cleaned and lubed every 600 rounds. That is good enough for me.

    As I posted in another thread, we are going to have a put up or shut up test at a future MD Shooters get together. I'll shove one of my 1911s in a bucket of mud, sand, or whatever, and I'll shoot the shit out of it afterwards. What do you have to bring you are willing to throw in the bucket?

    I'm looking for a list of people that have guns that want to go up against old slab sides. Are you volunteering, or will you be a no show?
     

    trbon8r

    Ultimate Member
    +1



    Are you serious? The answer is pretty much everything that makes a combat handgun desirable. They provide more firepower, are more reliable, more durable, easier to strip and easier to use. Is that not enough? The new ones are also easier and cheaper to produce. If all you can point to is a superior trigger on the 1911, I would respond as follows. First, there is no way in hell that the US military specs out a pistol with a crisp and light trigger pull. There would be too many ADs. Second, most soldiers lack the handgun shooting skills that would allow them to take advantage of a fine trigger. The training programs simply are not in place. The people who do have those honed skills would not be held back by a mushy trigger. Third, the military spec handguns invariably have crap min accuracy requirements, so it's not clear that a better trigger would improve overall accuracy. Fourth, modern combat handgun triggers are easily and cheaply fixed, if the military wants to do so. For example, a new sear does wonders for the M&P's.


    See my last post. Bring your tupperware out for a test and see where it stacks up.

    Holy crap. These newbie know nothings are coming out of the woodwork tonight. :lol2:
     

    mikec

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 1, 2007
    11,453
    Off I-83
    +1



    Are you serious? The answer is pretty much everything that makes a combat handgun desirable. They provide more firepower, are more reliable, more durable, easier to strip and easier to use. Is that not enough? The new ones are also easier and cheaper to produce. If all you can point to is a superior trigger on the 1911, I would respond as follows. First, there is no way in hell that the US military specs out a pistol with a crisp and light trigger pull. There would be too many ADs. Second, most soldiers lack the handgun shooting skills that would allow them to take advantage of a fine trigger. The training programs simply are not in place. The people who do have those honed skills would not be held back by a mushy trigger. Third, the military spec handguns invariably have crap min accuracy requirements, so it's not clear that a better trigger would improve overall accuracy. Fourth, modern combat handgun triggers are easily and cheaply fixed, if the military wants to do so. For example, a new sear does wonders for the M&P's.

    Again, these pistols would be for special forces types only not general issue.
     

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