Chassepot needle rifle: Better than s...shooting

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  • SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    I do not have the tool to measure the chamber. French Web site calls for 12mm. I choose 12.2 mm and felt a bit tight. To ensure smooth chambering, I moped out the chamber for every shot. After trying both regular percussion cap (winged) filled with black powder and percussion cap filled with toy cap and some of black powder, I think the 1st option is what I need (french website also suggests that.) Make sure the head of the needle flat enough and long enough.
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    Threering, the picture you got from wiki showing how the Chassepot cartridge work is correct. Look again, you will see the cap is pushed inward 2mm when the needle strikes it. That exposes enough black powder for the flash to ignite the ammo. The cap you shown is the right stuff for paper cartridges.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    Regarding the empty space behind the cartridge, I found this comment on the Forgotten Weapons video:

    Bryden
    June 3, 2015 at 11:54 am · Reply
    I have one of these and shoot it regularly.. it is remarkably reliable and, for it’s time, pretty accurate. I have shot it at 900yds and hit the target most of the time!

    The ammunition is not that difficult to make – I use gummed brown paper, top hat percussion caps and Lee .45 cast lead bullets. The obturators can be made from European tap (faucet) washers and the needles from Tig welding rod. Using modern butyl rubber and stainless steel needles cures many of the original problems..

    Iain’s description of the bolt head is a little confusing! The purpose of the “probe” thing on the end of the bolt is not to penetrate the cartridge. The cartridge is designed to sit on the tip of the bolt extension which creates a void behind the cartridge in the chamber. When the round fires, this space fills with high pressure gas which is then used to blow the cartridge debris, including the percussion cap, out of the bore behind the bullet. The paper cartridge is not consumed in the chamber! This works surprisingly well – you do get fouling building up at the front of the chamber, which needs brushing out occasionally but I never found caps or debris in the bore.

    http://www.forgottenweapons.com/chassepot-needle-rifle-at-ria-video/

    So that empty space allows the paper and percussion cap to be blown out the barrel on firing. Now we know.


    Here's a guy who treats his cartridges with flame retardant, to allow more shots between cleanings:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feODS1bcvwc

    And here's different guy who uses the same flame retardant treatment to get his Chassepot cranking them out as fast as a Mosin, anyway, if not quite Mauser-smooth.
    Here is a video of me with my Chassepot the second time I took it out. I took the advice of rhcustom.net and treated each paper cartridge case with a flame retardant. As the video shows his advice worked and I easily could shoot as much as I wanted to without having to stop and clean the chamber.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuS3OK2KBEU


    Lots of other videos on Chassepots. This guy makes a cartridge forming tool:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IclDI_jjYg4
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    Thanks Threering. I did see those before and after I got my Chassepot. They gave me some ideas but not enough to rebuilt my gun and to fabricate the ammo. I spent a lot of time (and $) to identify the right material for the rubber seal. The replacement needle was another adventure. I did look at the welding rod, finishing nails...not thing works until I came across sewing section at Walmart. for the cartridges, without the proper tools, it is quite hart to make one. I am still waiting for my wad puncher so I can make the next load (bought a 14mm, then I have to buy another 11mm). The wad is for the case head. Lots of issues, but it feels good for every hurdle I got over. I all ready made my loading tools so next batch of ammo will be perfect.
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    Threering,

    my response is incomplete so I try again.

    The chamber air pocket for chamber pressure to built up for a secondary blow out to clean the debris out of the gun is quite easy to be understood. additionally I also realize that this gas pressure compresses the orbirator so it can seal the chamber. the more pressure the tighter the seal. when the compression die down, the rubber will spring out and help to spit out debris in chamber. But this is not the answer for my question why the gun does not explode when a lot of air in chamber (this is one of the black powder greatest concern.)

    about the fire retardant, I don't think dry paper ashes is an issue. black powder residue is a greater problem. So I don't believe in this. more shooting will confirm this. I may want to search for material that burn more cleanly similar to silk or better. At one time I dreamed about turning the cartridge into a caseless ammo; but... how could we do it with black powder? :o
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    I had always heard you must not have an air space between the powder and the bullet. Here the only air space is behind the powder.
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    I repeat it again. Black powder experts always advice amateurs like myself not to leave empty space in anywhere in chamber/cartridge. If I wish to load light, I must fill the rest of the chamber/cartridge with cornmeal/wads/fiber. I really want to know if it's a myth or real. Blowing my antique is one thing, my face is another thing that I can't afford.

    I know you are one of the musketeers, so packing your load tightly is one of your religion's practice. I will bring out my Mle-1842 to AGC range to try out for the first time this coming weekend. That's why I want to know everything about black powder/pyrodex.
     

    Erno86

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 27, 2012
    1,814
    Marriottsville, Maryland
    I use hair curler paper {that I buy at a hair salon} for my paper patch bullets, that I use with my Sharps Carbine, and One Minute Cream of Wheat, that I use as filler for my Ruger Old Army pistol.
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    Erno86,
    I am eyeing my wife baking sheet. it seems to burn faster than printer paper and quite thick. I will ask my baber for sample next time i see her.
    Next will be tobaco paper then my old tie (it's labeled 100% silk). The final odtion cold be alunimum sheet.
    Thanks for your input and see you next weekend.
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    Everybody should have one. It's so easy to make ammo for this rifle than orther old guns such as Gras, Martini-Henrry, Snider-Enfield... There are no casings to form. No case cleanning and reload. I believe that it is easier to clean the Chassepot than a muzzel loader. Operation cost is low. It costs me less than $1to produce a cartridge. Needles and rubber seals are cheap to fabricate. If I could make the percussion caps myself, the Chassepot would be my survival weapon of choice. No kidding!
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    Thanks Threeband. Excellent info. I will copy it down just in case Trump win the election. But where can I locate Mercury, nitric acid athyl alcohol when SHTF. Flint could be easier to find. The video demonstration shows the mercury fulminate easily made, in reality it will be a pain. event I can produce the chemical I don't know if I survice after that to actually use it. Toxic, toxic, full of toxic!
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    Afghan tribesmen used to reload cartridges such as the .303 British using shredded celluloid motion-picture film as propellant. The old dangerous film, not the new "safety film."
    They would use remove the berdan primers (probably with hydraulic pressure) and remove the dent with a small punch. Then they would re-prime the primers using a paste made from match heads, the strike anywhere kind.

    I have also heard of Russian peasants and other poor rural folk reloading .22 rimfire cartridges the same way, using a paste made from match heads.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,156


    Tap-O-Cap discontinued years ago, around the time I got interested in buying one.

    Boxer primers can be remanufactured using paper caps as a priming compound and they will work, I have made test samples.. Consider them as corrosive and clean accordingly.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-50383.html
     
    Last edited:

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    When I was a kid I have to make my own toys. The toy pistol I made for myself shot "cap" make with match jamed into a bicycle tire valve then striked it with a nail and a small piece of match paper. We also used broken pingpong balls for rocket propellent.It burn like cannon gun powder.
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,948
    Fulton, MD
    Ping-pong balls are still made of nitro-cellulose - the original smokeless powder found in the 303 (cordite). Nothing else bounces the same.

    Mercury fulminate or some type of chlorate should do for primers.

    A couple of patents on making lead styphanate. Not sure of the non-lead primers these days.

    As a SHTF gun, these would be very appealing - no metal cartridge to worry about, black powder relatively easy to make (consider where the South got their powder during the Civil War).

    Nice.
     

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