Questions About Licensure.

Dogmeat · Apr 8, 2013

Hi,

I'm new to the forum (lurked for a month or so) but have been fighting the battle in Annapolis for about 10 years now. I have lived my whole life (56yrs) in MoCo and presently reside (or am imprisoned :banghead:

) in District 14. I WILL BE A DINO, as soon I can bring myself to pushing the button without throwing up! I was in Annapolis and testified at the first three hearings this year and couldn't take off more time from work, but I continued to email, call, etc. I am really PO'd about what was enacted, how it was enacted, and how we were, as a group, ignored, :mad54:

.

During my readings of the bills, it struck me that the licensing requirements in SB281 are very similar to those of concealed carry permit, with the exception the Good & Substantial Reason test. There is the Training requirement, the Fingerprinting requirement, Issuance of a License, paying a fee, etc. Many on this forum want Maryland to become a Shall Issue state and there is a stack of applications waiting for processing.

Now we have lost (at least temporarily) and I have read responses in other threads by many stating either they refuse to submit to getting fingerprinted in order to purchase a firearm or that they will buy them all now and go without later. So there are two questions that I have been chewing on and I would like to hear your opinions.

1. If the license requirement enacted in SB281 were in fact a license to carry, how may would still refuse to get fingerprinted or would you be standing in line?

2. By refusing to get fingerprinted and get a license, you will not be able to (legally) purchase a regulated firearm in Maryland. I wonder if this is the best course of action as it hurts gun stores in Maryland, reduces gun ownership in Maryland, and gives the Anti's another win. I am with you all on the whole "Unconstitutional Licensing a of Right" but would we be better off (even if we wait until after the legal challenge) if we just do it?

I look forward to hearing your opinions,

Thanks,

Dogmeat

mac1_131 · Apr 8, 2013

dogmeat - interesting first post.

assuming you are not a troll (doesn't sound like you are), welcome

your number one point sort of and almost came into play. There was some discussion of trying harder to get shall issue in play, perhaps as a carrot to get folks to buy in to the license concept.

but since we still have a good chance in the courts for shall issue (if we are patient), it is probably better that it didn't go down that way.

and you are probably correct on point number two also. If the gun stores go out of business because things are too onerous in MD, that's a win for the antis for sure.

so it will be important to get this mess in the courts and/or vote these idiots out of office in 2014 and change the law back. some folks will get the license, some will not.

I will probably hunker down as I was lucky enough to have been doing this for a long time that I will just wait them out

PS - I'm in D14 too.

Dogmeat · Apr 8, 2013

mac1_131,

Thanks for the reply. I may be short, but I'm no Troll

. I've been involved in this for awhile but, like most gun owners, have been flying solo or in a small local group. I thought it was time to get more involved with a larger group. I lurked for awhile just to make sure this group fit with my goals, and it does.

Like you, I have been doing this for a while and, along with my wife, are designated collectors. We can weather the storm for awhile waiting for the legal challenge (there are a few more I want before the deadline!) just in case.

I have been fingerprinted for work in the past, as has my wife, so for us it is probably less of an issue than for some (Not that I like it!) but it is something I have been chewing on and I like to make sure I am not out there in left field.

Thanks,

Dogmeat

mopar92 · Apr 8, 2013

If my "license" fingerprinted me gave me a "shall issue" CCW and allowed me to bypass the regulated firearms background check I'd have no issue with it.

Dogmeat · Apr 8, 2013

mopar92,

That was pretty much my thinking as well. I wonder, had the vote been much, much, closer, if the Legislature/O'Malley/Courts would have conceded on Wollard in order to get the fingerprinting background checks implemented. Like mac1_131, I think we are better of having them separated otherwise they could have just refiled the case after Sine Die and we would have been screwed again.

Dogmeat

mopar92 · Apr 8, 2013

Hey you're in MoCo! Want to get involved in something to help out all gun owners!

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=114512

Dogmeat · Apr 8, 2013

Love the idea, and doing some of that already. Don't think I can make the 13th as it is the last weekend before tax day and I have multiple returns to complete by Monday. Feeding the beast as little as possible is my present assignment!

Keep up the good work. I will be there with you in spirit.

Dogmeat

adit · Apr 8, 2013

What everyone fails to realize is they have already given their finger prints in one form or fashion.

Read the Apprehension section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gerhartsreiter#apprehension

Dogmeat · Apr 9, 2013

Wow, not may responses but lots of views. Hopefully, someone who has been here longer will ask the same question and we can get better results.

Thanks,

Dogmeat

Hopalong · Apr 9, 2013

Welcome!

Here's my thoughts on your two points:

1. I am not opposed to the notion of requiring a license to purchase a firearm. I only say this because you have to register to vote, you have to get an assembly permit to hold a rally, etc. What I oppose is the licensing system that Maryland came up with. If it were fast, simple, and easy (like registering to vote), I'd have no problem with it. Or, if it also acted as a concealed carry permit, which I feel should require a more thorough check, I'd have no problem with it. But the way it is structured now is untenable.

2. Some sources estimate that if the licensing provision ever goes into force, it will be a year before the first legal handgun sales happen in the state. (And that's assuming that we all actually apply for a license right away.) Considering that gun stores will be losing sales on many semi-automatic rifles already, how many of them so you think can absorb the loss of that much income for that long? I think it's absolutely a thinly-veiled attempt to put stores out of business. Which is sad, because that will cost jobs and sales/excise taxes for the state, which means even higher income taxes for us all.

Hopalong · Apr 9, 2013

Dogmeat said:
Wow, not may responses but lots of views. Hopefully, someone who has been here longer will ask the same question and we can get better results.

Thanks,

Dogmeat

There are a lot of really active threads at the moment. People are probably busy trying to hash out what an HBAR is or whether a referendum is a good idea. I've been here for years and have the same thing happen all the time. Don't take that personally.

Dogmeat · Apr 9, 2013

Hopalong,

Thanks. It was the same when I started on the SASS Cowboy Action website about 10 years ago. I tend to read more than I post anyway (think I average about 150 posts per year over there). Probably from my upbringing. My Dad used to say, " You have two ears and one mouth, use them in that proportion! ".

Thanks,

Dogmeat

2AHokie · Apr 9, 2013

1) No. I don't believe fingerprints are necessary, even for the issuance of concealed carry permits. VA is now managing to issue resident permits just fine without allowing localities to collect fingerprints. As a matter of principle, MD should follow suit.

If the fingerprints were run against unsolved crimes and then completely, permanently destroyed then I might be willing to give mine and prove I hadn't committed any unsolved crimes. But given the current system of storing them forever, I will never submit my fingerprints.

2) It is unfortunate that the retail stores might go out of business, but there will still be FFLs operating to do transfers. The transfer places will charge their fees and do as many as transfers as they can. If we can't defeat #1 in the courts, nothing else is really relevant. MD will be forever lost and there would be no point in living in this state anymore.

Gbh · Apr 9, 2013

Dogmeat said:
Hi,

I'm new to the forum (lurked for a month or so) but have been fighting the battle in Annapolis for about 10 years now. I have lived my whole life (56yrs) in MoCo and presently reside (or am imprisoned ) in District 14. I WILL BE A DINO, as soon I can bring myself to pushing the button without throwing up! I was in Annapolis and testified at the first three hearings this year and couldn't take off more time from work, but I continued to email, call, etc. I am really PO'd about what was enacted, how it was enacted, and how we were, as a group, ignored, .

During my readings of the bills, it struck me that the licensing requirements in SB281 are very similar to those of concealed carry permit, with the exception the Good & Substantial Reason test. There is the Training requirement, the Fingerprinting requirement, Issuance of a License, paying a fee, etc. Many on this forum want Maryland to become a Shall Issue state and there is a stack of applications waiting for processing.

Now we have lost (at least temporarily) and I have read responses in other threads by many stating either they refuse to submit to getting fingerprinted in order to purchase a firearm or that they will buy them all now and go without later. So there are two questions that I have been chewing on and I would like to hear your opinions.

1. If the license requirement enacted in SB281 were in fact a license to carry, how may would still refuse to get fingerprinted or would you be standing in line?

2. By refusing to get fingerprinted and get a license, you will not be able to (legally) purchase a regulated firearm in Maryland. I wonder if this is the best course of action as it hurts gun stores in Maryland, reduces gun ownership in Maryland, and gives the Anti's another win. I am with you all on the whole "Unconstitutional Licensing a of Right" but would we be better off (even if we wait until after the legal challenge) if we just do it?

I look forward to hearing your opinions,

Thanks,

Dogmeat

re: 1:
It's an incentive but I would not stand in line. It's a 50/50 proposition for me.

re: 2:
Currently, I'm of the mindset to not submit to the fingerprinting/additional requirements. That means no additional handguns after 10/1.

That said, I have many friends that are FFL's and I want to continue to support them and it may be limited to long guns, ammo and supplies.

rob-cubed · Apr 9, 2013

1) I don't mind submitting fingerprints for a license to carry, nor requirements to maintain that privilege (qualification, renewal fees). If a single license to buy also granted carry I'd be OK with that. Just not all the hurdles simply to purchase.

2) At the moment I don't plan on applying for a license to buy. Mostly on principle, but also because the process will be complete clusterf*ck for the first 4-6 months anyway until the MSP gets a lot of logistics figured out. They will not be prepared for it.

dlmcbm · Apr 9, 2013

I am one of the many that submitted fingerprints for a CCP. I did not have a problem with that because getting a CCP is a privilege not a right (YET!!!). Owning a firearm IS A RIGHT and that is were the problem lies.

MDFF2008 · Apr 9, 2013

What I dislike about licensing to own is the principal. I don't like needing a license to exercise a fundamental right in my home/on my property. That said, I understand that going out in public, my actions can impact other's freedom. Also, licensing is so closely tied to registration, and gun registration throughout history has never ended well.

I think of it like a car. I can buy a car and drive it around my farm without needing a license. If I want to take it on the public road, where my actions could hurt others, there is a compelling interest to license drivers to show they can safely operate a motorvehicle. Now, they should NOT be asking for a good reason to drive.

Mooseman · Apr 9, 2013

I do not like the thoughts of getting a license to purchase anything. The fingerprint part does not bother me horribly. I have to get fingerprinted every time I renew my drivers license. I just don't think I should need a license to buy anything. That being said, it would be easier for me to accept if this new licensing scheme if it eliminated the waiting period. If I have been fingerprinted and background checked to get my license to purchase, why should I have to wait to take my purchase home?

Brooklyn · Apr 9, 2013

This law must not stand. Period.

License for a privilege is bad enough not a right. Concede this and all is lost.

On gun shops if this law holds many will fold anyway due to the ban. There is more I could say on this but not in public as there is no point. I will be quite obvious in retrospect.

I am from Nyc once upon a time there were gun shops there -- then came licensing and excise taxes. Now they ate mostly gone.

This law must not stand. Period.

DoubleTap007 · Apr 9, 2013

1) I would line up immediately.

2) While I am not happy about this licensing crap, and once I cool off about how stupid it is, I do see myself going to get fingerprinted and getting a "license" so I can purchase again. I do feel very bad for MD gun stores, I think this is a terrible thing the state has done.

Based on my answer to #1, you can see that I'm more upset with the principle of the matter. Furthermore, I do not see how fingerprinting will do anything more than the 50 day waiting period they have in effect now. I've read that its to deter people from straw purchases. However I don't see how that is the case.

If someone buys a gun through the current process, and then gives it away, its used in a crime, the serial #'s will come back to the purchaser. If the serial #'s have been removed, then its hard to figure out who is the actual purchaser. However having the fingerprints of the purchaser will do nothing to trace the gun back to them.

As we all know this is essentially a deterrent/obstacle to ownership and should be fought in court after this bill goes in effect.

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