12 Gauge Home Defense Video Field Test: Effects On Walls and Simulated Bodies

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  • jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Yea, bird shot will destroy a couple pork chops, but will it reliably penetrate the vitals of a human at home defense distances? Has been proven NO repeatedly. Buck and slugs are adequate for defense, bird shot is only viable if you failed at preparation, and have absolutely nothing better.

    He did not simply destroy a couple of pork chops. He attempted to simulate several layers of the body that would need to be penetrated in order to reach vital organs. He simulated the muscle with pork chops, but included ribs and a heart to simulate more of the body. It may not be perfect but is better than just a couple of pork chops.

    Whether bird shot can reliably penetrate the vitals at home defense distances depends on what you really consider home defense distances. From the testing that I have seen, bird shot is likely capable of penetrating vitals at short distances (within about 3-5 yards). Its penetration capabilities rapidly falls off beyond these short distances. The exact distance depends on the shot, the gun, and how fast the shot spreads out. At these short distances the individual pellets act as a group mimicking larger shot.
     

    geda

    Active Member
    Dec 24, 2017
    550
    cowcounty
    In my bump-in-the-night shotgun I do 00 buck then two slugs. Logic being if few rounds of buckshot dont fix the situation, then maybe the slugs will? This is not do less damage humane thinking, this is realistically 7 slugs are going to knock the shit out of my small frame in a panic situation. After I am out of buckshot I either need to retreat and get an AR or go all in with the slugs in the current weapon. But seriously though any tactical fantasy that I can come up with that 1 round of buckshot cant fix also has ninjas flanking me though the windows. Maybe this is just pre-covid thinking, the odds of the bump-in-the-night just being a rotten raccoon could change drastically in the next few months. I keep a 300blk AR in my bedroom safe and could move a 458 socom AR up there too.
     

    Lightyear68

    Member
    Feb 1, 2016
    22
    I initially posted this video to educate people with facts. The video affirms the fact that 00 buckshot is most lethal in terms of killing a bad guy. No argument from me on that point.

    But the value of this video is that it presents a strong argument for suburban homeowners to consider a lighter load to reduce the risk of injuring or killing people in other rooms or even outside of their homes. I'm a Marine combat veteran and know more than the average person about firearms, but I never realized that buckshot would likely blow through my exterior wall.

    Here's what I learned from the video:

    If you live in a rural area and don't need to be concerned with 00 Buckshot exiting your exterior wall with lethal force, then 00 Buckshot is the way to go.

    If you shoot a bad guy in an apartment or condo then buckshot pellets are likely to enter your neighbor's home.

    If you shoot a bad guy in a single-family home then buckshot pellets are likely to blow through your exterior wall.

    Choosing the correct shotgun ammo for in-home self-defense is about more than just knock-down power.

    You also have to consider the consequences of pellets blowing through your walls.

    If you're lucky enough not to hurt or kill your neighbor, you might not be lucky enough to avoid legal charges and/or lawsuit.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    That is how I took it.
    Also an FYI for those who would say birdshot had zero value in home defense.
    100 rounds for $22 makes one think about it more.
     

    rseymorejr

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 28, 2011
    26,015
    Harford County
    A goose is a bird, therefore my choice for a birdshot load for home defense would be 3" BBs. I think a gut shot at 5 yards could be very effective.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    I initially posted this video to educate people with facts. The video affirms the fact that 00 buckshot is most lethal in terms of killing a bad guy. No argument from me on that point.

    But the value of this video is that it presents a strong argument for suburban homeowners to consider a lighter load to reduce the risk of injuring or killing people in other rooms or even outside of their homes. I'm a Marine combat veteran and know more than the average person about firearms, but I never realized that buckshot would likely blow through my exterior wall.

    Here's what I learned from the video:

    If you live in a rural area and don't need to be concerned with 00 Buckshot exiting your exterior wall with lethal force, then 00 Buckshot is the way to go.

    If you shoot a bad guy in an apartment or condo then buckshot pellets are likely to enter your neighbor's home.

    If you shoot a bad guy in a single-family home then buckshot pellets are likely to blow through your exterior wall.

    Choosing the correct shotgun ammo for in-home self-defense is about more than just knock-down power.

    You also have to consider the consequences of pellets blowing through your walls.

    If you're lucky enough not to hurt or kill your neighbor, you might not be lucky enough to avoid legal charges and/or lawsuit.

    That's a really good summary. I might add, that it may also turn on the kind of exterior wall you have. For example, my exterior wall is brick and concrete block (built back when that was standard construction). That would probably defeat 00 buck (or even a 30.06 round).
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Traditionally in a shotgun, a slug is for a little more distant engagement. It works as well close up for home defense. I just don't understand why someone creates a magazine chambering order with both buckshot and slugs (or even with birdshot) for home defense.

    What's the logic behind that?

    I do that jump shooting deer sometimes. Yes I know not an interior home wall scenario but you would be surprised how much a little vegetation like light honeysuckle brush or phragmites will slow or stop bird or buck shot that can result in a cripple or clean miss to a vital area.

    A slug will bust through that mess by not entirely flattening out and keep you from wading a ditch or gut if that M**^_ER gets back up.
    Even if you made two bad hits a second one with a slug thats poorly placed will make them lay down and kick like a dog that wants its belly rubbed.

    Ill let the experts talk about shooting people in a house. I don't want to or ever have do that. #6 that's well placed on a non startled deer will flatten them to about 20-25 yards.:)
     

    1841DNG

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 17, 2016
    1,143
    Paul had sold me on 04 buck before. Here are two other videos of his on penetration in home defense that I found interesting personally if you have some down time.


     

    Cal68

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 4, 2014
    1,978
    Montgomery County
    I initially posted this video to educate people with facts. The video affirms the fact that 00 buckshot is most lethal in terms of killing a bad guy. No argument from me on that point.

    But the value of this video is that it presents a strong argument for suburban homeowners to consider a lighter load to reduce the risk of injuring or killing people in other rooms or even outside of their homes. I'm a Marine combat veteran and know more than the average person about firearms, but I never realized that buckshot would likely blow through my exterior wall.

    Here's what I learned from the video:

    If you live in a rural area and don't need to be concerned with 00 Buckshot exiting your exterior wall with lethal force, then 00 Buckshot is the way to go.

    If you shoot a bad guy in an apartment or condo then buckshot pellets are likely to enter your neighbor's home.

    If you shoot a bad guy in a single-family home then buckshot pellets are likely to blow through your exterior wall.

    Choosing the correct shotgun ammo for in-home self-defense is about more than just knock-down power.

    You also have to consider the consequences of pellets blowing through your walls.

    If you're lucky enough not to hurt or kill your neighbor, you might not be lucky enough to avoid legal charges and/or lawsuit.

    That's a really good summary. I might add, that it may also turn on the kind of exterior wall you have. For example, my exterior wall is brick and concrete block (built back when that was standard construction). That would probably defeat 00 buck (or even a 30.06 round).

    I agree that the OP made a good summary of the situation. I definitely learned a lot by watching the video. I don't have any birdshot at home for my shotgun, but I think that when the current situation gets better, I need to get some for my HD.

    Cal68
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    He did not simply destroy a couple of pork chops. He attempted to simulate several layers of the body that would need to be penetrated in order to reach vital organs. He simulated the muscle with pork chops, but included ribs and a heart to simulate more of the body. It may not be perfect but is better than just a couple of pork chops.

    Whether bird shot can reliably penetrate the vitals at home defense distances depends on what you really consider home defense distances. From the testing that I have seen, bird shot is likely capable of penetrating vitals at short distances (within about 3-5 yards). Its penetration capabilities rapidly falls off beyond these short distances. The exact distance depends on the shot, the gun, and how fast the shot spreads out. At these short distances the individual pellets act as a group mimicking larger shot.

    It's been debunked numerous times, one of the main issues is that basic parameters of living tissue and raw food are completely different, tensile strength, density, elasticity etc, and the penetration numbers in turn are completely different. Even ballistics gel is far from perfect inch per inch compared to living tissue, human skin alone is generally accepted to represent around 4" of gel penetration(about the average penetration of #8 bird shot BTW). Of course bird shot "might" be enough, and there are a handful of anecdotes where a person was killed from extremely close range as the shot column hit together and penetrated sufficiently, but it isn't a reliable wounding mechanism.

    Bottom line is unfortunately people are a lot tougher than drywall, some might stop when they see a firearm, or get a handful of pellets blown into their skin, but they will still be capable of continuing an attack. Only large buck and slugs have the capability of incapacitating a person reliably, and in turn they will penetrate quite a few layers of drywall.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    It's been debunked numerous times, one of the main issues is that basic parameters of living tissue and raw food are completely different, tensile strength, density, elasticity etc, and the penetration numbers in turn are completely different. Even ballistics gel is far from perfect inch per inch compared to living tissue, human skin alone is generally accepted to represent around 4" of gel penetration(about the average penetration of #8 bird shot BTW). Of course bird shot "might" be enough, and there are a handful of anecdotes where a person was killed from extremely close range as the shot column hit together and penetrated sufficiently, but it isn't a reliable wounding mechanism.

    Bottom line is unfortunately people are a lot tougher than drywall, some might stop when they see a firearm, or get a handful of pellets blown into their skin, but they will still be capable of continuing an attack. Only large buck and slugs have the capability of incapacitating a person reliably, and in turn they will penetrate quite a few layers of drywall.

    I am not sure how the fact that the penetration numbers may be different in different media debunks the fact that bird shot can penetrate to vital organs.

    Dick Cheney accidentally shot someone in the face with bird shot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney_hunting_accident
    The person he shot was 30-40 yards away with pellets less than 1/10 in, which suggests a 7 or smaller shot. The person suffered a minor heart attack due to a pellet lodged in or near the heart as well as a collapsed lung.

    You seem to be implying that small bird shot like Cheney used cannot even penetrate the skin based on artificial tests that you acknowledge are not representative of real conditions. Yet real world examples demonstrate that small bird shot is capable of reaching vital organs even at 30 yards.

    I would certainly agree that at longer ranges, bird shot is not going to reliably penetrate to vital organs, although it is capable of doing so.

    I completely disagree at short distances where the majority of pellets are still grouped together. While the tests may not represent real conditions, the amount of destruction seems to be more than sufficient to account for any potential discrepancies.
     

    Park ranger

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 6, 2015
    2,315
    You all know paul Harrell actually did have a self defense shooting. Hes a distinguished rifleman and served in the usmc and army.
     

    cstone

    Active Member
    Dec 12, 2018
    842
    Baltimore, MD
    Birdshot can be effective...if you open the shell and mix the shot into some melted wax and then pour it back into the shell and recrimp. Cut shells can work as well if you are using a break action.

    #4 buck is what we carried in our duty shotguns. We had slugs available but never loaded any while on duty.

    I like Harrel's videos. He is what you might call a professional.
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    You all know paul Harrell actually did have a self defense shooting. Hes a distinguished rifleman and served in the usmc and army.

    The combined body count of people I've trained with rivals typhoid. None of them advocate the use of birdshot for any form of self-defense.

    Birdshot is for birds.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    End of the day, it all depends. Good thing I have told my kids to get on the floor if they hear any shooting, because I am pretty sure that 00, handgun rounds, and rifle rounds are going through most of the house. Hoping the alarm stops people first. If not, hope I get them coming up the stairs.

    Nobody knows what their home defense situation will be when the time comes, so we really have no idea what the correct round for it will be.

    If you don't miss, you have a lot less to worry about.

    Black bear killed with birdshot at point blank

    https://www.fieldandstream.com/blog...e-hunter-kills-attacking-black-bear-birdshot/

    Coyote killed at a decent distance with birdshot meant for pheasants.



    I've dropped geese dead with BB Hevi-Shot at 60 yards. No house I have been in is 180 feet wide end to end. Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote would also make a wonderful home defense round. Hevi-Shot up to #4 would be just fine in my book for home defense while inside one's home, unless you need to shoot through a wall or two to kill the bad guy.

    00 buck would probably go through every wall in my house except for the concrete wall on the exterior of the house.

    Think I would be just fine with #4 copper plated lead turkey loads for self defense inside my house. Outside the house in the open, 00 or slugs.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    The combined body count of people I've trained with rivals typhoid. None of them advocate the use of birdshot for any form of self-defense.

    Birdshot is for birds.

    Is Buck shot just for bucks?

    Just because you train with a lot of people does not mean they are correct in every situation. There are lots of self defense situations with some more common than others. Every weapon is going to have advantages and disadvantages.

    Bird shot has limited penetration capability, which can be both an advantage and a disadvantage.

    One of the four rules of gun safety is to be sure of your target and what lies beyond it.

    In certain situations you may not be able to control what lies beyond the target so you may need to limit any damage by limiting the penetration capability. The disadvantage is that it limits the range in which it may be lethal.

    For most situations that may be unacceptable, but it may be acceptable for certain situations. If I lived in an apartment, I would seriously consider using bird shot. If I lived in the middle of nowhere, I probably would not consider it.

    Don't simply dismiss it. Evaluate your situation and make an appropriate decision based on the situation.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Is Buck shot just for bucks?

    Just because you train with a lot of people does not mean they are correct in every situation. There are lots of self defense situations with some more common than others. Every weapon is going to have advantages and disadvantages.

    Bird shot has limited penetration capability, which can be both an advantage and a disadvantage.

    One of the four rules of gun safety is to be sure of your target and what lies beyond it.

    In certain situations you may not be able to control what lies beyond the target so you may need to limit any damage by limiting the penetration capability. The disadvantage is that it limits the range in which it may be lethal.

    For most situations that may be unacceptable, but it may be acceptable for certain situations. If I lived in an apartment, I would seriously consider using bird shot. If I lived in the middle of nowhere, I probably would not consider it.

    Don't simply dismiss it. Evaluate your situation and make an appropriate decision based on the situation.

    Not unless y0ur shooting geese :lol2:!:)
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    The combined body count of people I've trained with rivals typhoid. None of them advocate the use of birdshot for any form of self-defense.

    Birdshot is for birds.

    Indeed.

    It's the typical habit of people relying on different equipment to make up for their training short falls.

    Aftermarket triggers make people better with trigger press. BS

    Suppressor height sights help their bad eyes aim better. BS

    birdshot keeps them from killing a no shoot innocent bystander. BS

    If birdshot is so great, why don't we ditch all pistol calibers and have everyone carry a Judge with .410 birdshot. That way we eliminate all "bad shoots".
     

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