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  • thomfantomas

    Crna Ovca
    Feb 15, 2013
    8,884
    Дундак ex Florida Keys
    There are 20 states with a murder rate higher than the national average and 30 states with a murder rate below the national average.
    There are 10 "anti-gun" states: California, New York, Maryland, Delaware, Illinois, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts and Hawaii. I don't consider New Mexico, Michigan, or Colorado to be anti-gun because New Mexico and Michigan have been loosening their restrictions and Colorado recalled 2 senators, would have recalled a third, and their laws will be repealed next year- and they weren't enacted when these stats became available. Out of the 10 states 6 are below the national average and 4 are above the average. The amount of anti-gun states with murder rates above and below the national average is proportionate to the number of states overall with murder rates above and below the average. This just shows you that gun control doesn't solve anything.

    and your thoughts?
     

    Benanov

    PM Bomber
    May 15, 2013
    910
    Shrewsbury, PA
    I'd love for you to cite your statistics. I may agree with your premise, but an argument backed up by verifiable data is something I can take and use elsewhere.
     

    abean4187

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 16, 2013
    1,327
    There is so much more to crime than just gun ownership (Both legal and illegal). Drug laws, education for inner city youth, poverty, etc. There is so little correlation between gun laws and crime that I tend to get annoyed when either side does it (Both sides tend to post really crappy statistics and ignore other factors). Other countries with high gun ownership have low crime rates except for America, which has a high crime rate. This alone should show us that removing/increasing guns will most likely not solve our crime problem.

    All we need to focus on is that we have a right to defend ourselves, no matter what the crime statistics are. If you really want to reduce crime, reduce poverty, aka, create jobs.
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    There is so much more to crime than just gun ownership (Both legal and illegal). Drug laws, education for inner city youth, poverty, etc. There is so little correlation between gun laws and crime that I tend to get annoyed when either side does it (Both sides tend to post really crappy statistics and ignore other factors). Other countries with high gun ownership have low crime rates except for America, which has a high crime rate. This alone should show us that removing/increasing guns will most likely not solve our crime problem.

    All we need to focus on is that we have a right to defend ourselves, no matter what the crime statistics are. If you really want to reduce crime, reduce poverty, aka, create jobs.


    OK but how to you explain inverse correlation used as an agreement in favor of gun control..

    We can in fact prove that crime goes down when gun ownership goes up. And we know why as well. See criminals tell us that they avoid armed potential targets..

    Crime is caused by failing to punish criminals.. don't believe me.. explain why I never see riotiers stealing food.......

    Crime is caused by liberal policies. That correlation is very clear.

    But you keep denying... sooner of later not even liberals will believe it..;)
     

    Benanov

    PM Bomber
    May 15, 2013
    910
    Shrewsbury, PA
    Crime is caused by failing to punish criminals.. don't believe me.. explain why I never see riotiers stealing food.......

    Crime is caused by liberal policies. That correlation is very clear.

    Funny. 10 years ago I took one administration of justice class, as an elective. It was mildly interesting, but I prefer copyright law.

    The number of theories about why people commit crimes is quite high - and it was quite clearly communicated that no single theory - such as deterrence, as you cite above - was responsible for all crime.

    So please stop posting that deterrence or the lack of it is responsible for crime. It's definitely a part of the problem but it's not all of it. If it were that simple the problem would have been solved by now
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,590
    Glen Burnie
    I think a better comparison to make, at least for crime in general, is poverty in relation to crime. I think that looser firearms laws can be a deterrent to violent crime, but crime in general has more ties to poverty.
     

    MDFF2008

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 12, 2008
    24,735
    Funny. 10 years ago I took one administration of justice class, as an elective. It was mildly interesting, but I prefer copyright law.

    The number of theories about why people commit crimes is quite high - and it was quite clearly communicated that no single theory - such as deterrence, as you cite above - was responsible for all crime.

    So please stop posting that deterrence or the lack of it is responsible for crime. It's definitely a part of the problem but it's not all of it. If it were that simple the problem would have been solved by now

    Valid point. Texas isn't running out of death row inmates.

    But Brooklyn has a point that deterrence is a word all but unknown to the people who run Maryland.
     

    LongTom

    Active Member
    Jan 13, 2010
    220
    Southern Maryland
    Funny. 10 years ago I took one administration of justice class, as an elective. It was mildly interesting, but I prefer copyright law.

    The number of theories about why people commit crimes is quite high - and it was quite clearly communicated that no single theory - such as deterrence, as you cite above - was responsible for all crime.

    So please stop posting that deterrence or the lack of it is responsible for crime. It's definitely a part of the problem but it's not all of it. If it were that simple the problem would have been solved by now

    I've taken a few classes, too, and I'm educated enough to know that repeat offenders make up a vast majority of criminals, dude. Come ON, man... This is a massive problem, here in MD.

    Furthermore, I'm also educated enough to know that there have been some very high profile studies, funded by the DOJ, that showed that guns scare the piss out of criminals, causing them to avoid violent crime in several key ways, namely the evaluation of breaking and entering, mugging, and armed robbery.

    The only thing of yours I agree with is that you can't reduce reasons for crime down to a singular issue, and that is has to be a multi-faceted approach.
     
    Apr 15, 2013
    88
    There is so little correlation between gun laws and crime that I tend to get annoyed when either side does it (Both sides tend to post really crappy statistics and ignore other factors).

    This.

    Both sides desperately want there to be a true correlation. And both sides seem perfectly happy to lie (or at least to cherry pick their "facts") in an attempt to convince themselves and (hopefully) others that their opinions are "common sense" truth.

    It's like trying to discuss science and reason with fundamentalists.
     

    daggo66

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 31, 2013
    1,992
    Glen Burnie
    Funny. 10 years ago I took one administration of justice class, as an elective. It was mildly interesting, but I prefer copyright law.

    The number of theories about why people commit crimes is quite high - and it was quite clearly communicated that no single theory - such as deterrence, as you cite above - was responsible for all crime.

    So please stop posting that deterrence or the lack of it is responsible for crime. It's definitely a part of the problem but it's not all of it. If it were that simple the problem would have been solved by now


    The threat of deterence and actual deterence are two different things. While having the death penalty doesn't deter future crimes, it certainly puts an end to a repeated offense. By deterence we mean locking criminals up instead of letting them out on plea bargains to commit more crimes.
     

    Benanov

    PM Bomber
    May 15, 2013
    910
    Shrewsbury, PA
    "Deterrence" really is the threat of punishment being a deterrent to crime (hence the name) - "I'll get caught and I'll have to do time...I'd rather be outside and free rather than spending 23 hours/day in a cage"

    There are people who reoffend solely because they have adjusted to life on the inside and can't function in the free society. There are people who reoffend because they don't care - being in prison or having been in prison is credibility in their social circles. There are people who reoffend because they don't think they'll get caught - as in, the deterrence isn't effective.

    And yes, there are people who offend because the punishment is too light or not a punishment at all.

    I didn't say it was ineffective. I said it wasn't the sole reason. I am phrasing this very carefully. It frustrates me - just as much as it frustrates all of you - to see people who are wasting my O2 out on parole/bail offending again. Sure, locking them up will work - but that's great for when we can decide cases on such a case-by-case basis (such as in the court system); this is impossible when making policy to deal with crimes that haven't been committed yet (such as law).

    MD does err on the side of giving people PBJs for things way too often. I would be foolish to say that I don't know people who have benefitted from that leniency.
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    Funny. 10 years ago I took one administration of justice class, as an elective. It was mildly interesting, but I prefer copyright law.

    The number of theories about why people commit crimes is quite high - and it was quite clearly communicated that no single theory - such as deterrence, as you cite above - was responsible for all crime.

    So please stop posting that deterrence or the lack of it is responsible for crime. It's definitely a part of the problem but it's not all of it. If it were that simple the problem would have been solved by now


    Bull . No one wants to solve it. Its very useful to both sides..

    When crime pays you get more of it. Crime pays. Ding dong. Meanwhile its not Republican run cities that are in cascadr failure. Nor is it an accident that the more we study crime the more we get.

    But its OK.. this time the cites go down of the count.. and the strap back ton the right will be brutal.. its all about who gets killed and when.... right now the people doing the dying are not connected enough yo matter... give it time.
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    This.

    Both sides desperately want there to be a true correlation. And both sides seem perfectly happy to lie (or at least to cherry pick their "facts") in an attempt to convince themselves and (hopefully) others that their opinions are "common sense" truth.

    It's like trying to discuss science and reason with fundamentalists.

    Bull. Inverse corelation is dispositive disproof of the link between crime and leagaly owned guns.
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    The threat of deterence and actual deterence are two different things. While having the death penalty doesn't deter future crimes, it certainly puts an end to a repeated offense. By deterence we mean locking criminals up instead of letting them out on plea bargains to commit more crimes.

    The death penalty is primarily used as a tool to get pleas. It helps achieve the end state that liberals claim they want -- life in prison with out parole ( well actually 5 years at best for a good murder I would bet....).

    Here's a tip liberals the repeat offenders can't repeat when in jail. The more they stay in the system the fewer crimes they commit. That's. not deference -- that the law of physics..
     

    tony b

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 20, 2012
    1,512
    Joppa
    most criminal are aware of where they feel safest committing crimes. They know victim with protections are no victims at all.
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    I've taken a few classes, too, and I'm educated enough to know that repeat offenders make up a vast majority of criminals, dude. Come ON, man... This is a massive problem, here in MD.

    Furthermore, I'm also educated enough to know that there have been some very high profile studies, funded by the DOJ, that showed that guns scare the piss out of criminals, causing them to avoid violent crime in several key ways, namely the evaluation of breaking and entering, mugging, and armed robbery.

    The only thing of yours I agree with is that you can't reduce reasons for crime down to a singular issue, and that is has to be a multi-faceted approach.

    All that matters is that all the data shows inverse correlation of crime rates and gun ownership.. all the Antis have left is the claim that it is not a causal link.-- but see without a casual link the right kicks in and all gun laws fail even RB. So they play games and shift the burden of proof.

    The burden of proof when you wish to restrict a fundamental right is on those that propose the restrictions. That's it.. game over

    Any evidence that gun ownership lowers crime is icing on the cake

    John lott has been attacked personally but his work stands all the document and confirmed fraud is on the other side. The burden of proof remains and they will cheat to archive it.
     

    natsb

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 18, 2013
    1,255
    southern MD
    I think a better comparison to make, at least for crime in general, is poverty in relation to crime. I think that looser firearms laws can be a deterrent to violent crime, but crime in general has more ties to poverty.

    Trying to nail down the cause of crime is like trying to nail down spaghetti. I did a paper in college on crime and poverty and my research blew a hole in the crime/poverty relationship.

    The ten poorest counties in America are in Appalachia. And I mean real poverty. No wide screen, no air conditioning, no running water, no electricity. They also have a violent crime rate way below the national average.

    I was able to point to a correlation between population density and crime, but no correlation could be made between poverty and crime.

    The DOJ web site has some interesting documents with all the statistics. I'll look them up when I get to a real computer.

    Sent from my LG-E980 using Tapatalk
     

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