What does $3,200 buy?

trickg,

I not only remember Rudy, but I knew him. That's was a differnt time. In those days, half of the trap guns out there were M12s and 870s. Not so today. Virtually no one who is serious competes with them now.

That said, an 870 or 1100 trap model is a good choice for a beginner who may or may not get serious. Once the bug bites, 99.9% of the shooters use a break open single bbl or an O/U combo.

BTW, anyone in the market for a trap gun would be well served to deal with Rudy's son, Joel Etchen, who has a thriving clay target gun business in Pa. Good guy, decent prices. Big Beretta, Kolar and Ljutic dealer.

wyomingboy said:

That's was a differnt time. In those days, half of the trap guns out there were M12s and 870s.

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So what are you trying to say? Are you saying that the advent of quality, expensive break action trap shotguns occurred AFTER Rudy's competition heyday? Golly, I seem to remember that the break action shotgun came before the pump, but hey, what do I know, right?



I can certainly see how a break action gun would have advantages of quickness over a pump for multiple targets, but again, using my experiences as a musician as a comparison, I would tend to think it has as much to do with gun snobbery as anything else and without a doubt, the non-shooters with guns far better than they are, outnumber the guys who own those kinds of shotguns who can truly make use of the advantage the gun offers them. Again, I see it all the time in the world of music - why should the world of trap and skeet be any different? The people involved in the sport likely are going to run the range from rank amateur to polished pro, with everything in between, just like in music.

I once hooked up with another wannabe trumpet player to hang out and compare horns. This guy had all kinds of horns and some of them really nice - nicer than what I was gigging on all of the time. And flat out, this guy sucked. Then he goes on to start talking about how one horn felt stuffy to him. His sound was so underdeveloped that honestly, I don't know how he would have even been able to tell the difference. Seriously - the guy was terrible, and yet there he was with some fantastic equipment. He had more toys than talent.

Please, tell me and convince me that kind of thing doesn't happen in the trap and skeet world.

trickg said:

^^ True enough - I've got pretty good musical instruments - both my trumpet and my drums for that very reason - if I sound like crap, I only have myself to blame.

There's also the aspect that a good piece of gear allows you to take your mind off of the gear and focus on the task of using it. My son, a guitar player, was advancing pretty rapidly and it was clear that there was some potential there. Although he had a pretty decent intermediate guitar, an Epiphone SG refitted with Gibson pickups and Gibson spec electronics and wiring, it didn't actually say "Gibson" on the headstock, and being a kid where brand name is an important thing, he was somewhat preoccupied by that fact.

So, I spoiled him a bit and bought him a Gibson Les Paul standard. My line of reasoning was that:
1.) he was ready for it and could make use of what the instrument could offer him,
2.) He'd stop thinking about any possible shortcomings of his guitar and start thinking about his playing, (he did)
3.) It would end the desire for an "upgrade" and
4.) I wouldn't have to worry about buying him another guitar, ever.

All of those things worked out like I had hoped, with the added plus that it inspired him to practice more and work even harder and I fully believe that he would not be where he is as a player now if I hadn't splurged and gotten him the Les Paul.

Sorry that I keep making comparisons to music and musical instruments, but it's very much the same concept

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my lil bro plays the ax too and my friend Johnny Davis, drummer for such bands as Never Never and Everbody Wants Some (van halen tribute) suggested we take his epiphone les paul standard to a Mike Forrester to have it "set up". my cousin Sean is a guitar guru and couldn't tell the difference between the sound and feel of my bros Epiphone Les Paul standard and his Gibson Les Paul Studio except the gibson weighed a little more
the business is called Forrester Kustoms. 75 bones to set up a guitar check out his website
sorry back to the piont of the thread....
i just put a mossberg 500 on layaway

trickg,

Don't go there. Gun snobbery is only in the mind of those afflicted by class envy and know nothing about clay target sports or the folks who shoot them. The FACT is that shooters in all disciplines come from all walks of life. Yes, there are many shooters in all of the shooting sports who are not good enough at what they do to ever get the full potential from some of the equipment they use. So what, why not shoot the type of gun you choose to shoot? Should we all be shooting Mossbergs so a couple of people don't turn green with envy?

Don't infer that I think that break action trap guns were invented after Rudy's era. That only shows a big lack of knowledge of trap shooting history. There were always numerous action types in use and that's true today. What I'm telling you is that the SBT is what dominates the game today. When I started shooting the dominant gun was the Model 12.

Back to guns. Facts are facts and break open guns specifically designed for trap have advantages over other designs. They are faster to the target, have faster lock times, have much better triggers, are avalable with drop out trigger groups, combination sets, more custom features than other designs, etc etc etc. All shooters enjoy shooting to the best of their abilities. They therefore shoot the guns that they shoot best.

I recommend that you get out to a couple of league shoots and if you enjoy it, move on to ATA shoots. Given some time, I'll bet I know what you won't be shooting.

good post, but sadly even $3200 is out of my price range. what about a trap gun that could shoot skeet and maybe clays if need be for around $1000?? i am thinking a Beretta AL391 Urika for $950 at Dick's. would this work.

I've been wanting to say this for a long time, but have held back...I'm going to say it now because I'm watching it yet again on this thread. There is a large group of individuals on this board that seems to enjoy attacking anyone who spends more than a couple of hundred $ on a firearm. This thread is on shotguns, but I've seen it on in may different threads.

I am a firm believer in "you get what you pay for". I don't give a flip what someone spends their money on. The point at which I chime in is when the cheap skates (yeah, I'm calling you out) start making claims that "my $275 Mossberg is just as good as your $3500 Beretta". I've seen it with the ARs, pistols, and so on. Most of these people have never even shot any of these high end guns, yet they make the statements like authorities. Again, I don't give a crap what you shoot, but don't get on here making unqualified, unquantified, and down right false statements. If you shoot a Rossi, 870, whatever and go outshoot a guy with a high grade gun- good for you and I respect that. I've experienced it myself many times. I don't respect lumping all guys that shoot high grade guns into the category of somehow being aholes because they can afford something you cannot.

This started with a guy asking for advice and whether a high grade gun is really worth it. The real answer to that should be "if you can afford it and are serious about competing in the discipline, the high grade gun is worth it. Go buy a reloading set-up as well because that will be worth it too". If you just want to bust a few clays occasionally or tune up for hunting season, then it is not worth it.

tigmaned,

The 391 would be a good choice, but not the field version. I would suggest a 30" Sporter. Contact PG Trap & Skeet for a price... or buy one on line and have it shipped to PG. Transfers are only $25 and don't forget that there's no sales tax if it comes from out of State.

The Sporter is stocked better for any of the clay target games than the field gun. While I don't think there is such a thing as one gun for all games, sporters of any action type come close and 30" bbls are a great compromise in an autoloader, 32" in an O/U.

wyomingboy said:

trickg,

Don't go there. Gun snobbery is only in the mind of those afflicted by class envy and know nothing about clay target sports or the folks who shoot them.

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Spare me. Ultimately, aside from fancy hand checkering and fancy hand engraving, there are only so many man-hours that go into even the best of trap guns, so past that price point, what are you really buying?

And gun snobbery has nothing to do with class envy - there are guys running around with VERY expensive guns, be they handguns, totally tricked out ARs, hunting rifles, tactical rifles or trap guns, and they save and scrape and sacrifice in all other aspects of their lives in order to purchase them. It boils down to true need with what is actually necessary to be competitive (see my quote above about Mr. 870) and what is perceived as a need due to hype and advertising.

By the way, I'm not a cheapskate - I recognize good value, whether it's a gun or a musical instrument and I'm willing to pay for it when there is a need, but I also recognize the hype and BS that is attached to the more expensive brands and models, which equates to more money - none of which will necessarily equate to a better score come competition time.

OK Patrick, how about qualifying your words with some background. Please answer the following so I understand where you are coming from and what your experience level really is:

How old are you?
How long have you been shooting ATA trap?
What is your ATA membership number?
What classes do you shoot in and what is your handicap yardage?
What gun(s) do you currently shoot?
What guns have you used over the past 10 years?
How did you fare at the State Shoot?
How did you fare at the Grand over the past 10 years?
What contributions have you made to the sport of Trapshooting?

wyomingboy said:

OK Patrick, how about qualifying your words with some background. Please answer the following so I understand where you are coming from and what your experience level really is:

How old are you?
How long have you been shooting ATA trap?
What is your ATA membership number?
What classes do you shoot in and what is your handicap yardage?
What gun(s) do you currently shoot?
What guns have you used over the past 10 years?
How did you fare at the State Shoot?
How did you fare at the Grand over the past 10 years?
What contributions have you made to the sport of Trapshooting?

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Don't be a jerk - NONE of that is relevant to the conversation, nor does my level of experience shooting trap (which is virtually none other than some recreational stuff I did years ago) have anything to do with the points, which are common sense by the way, that I have been making throughout this discussion.

Points I have made:

1.) High priced trap guns are specifically made to make the job easier - a point I actually made with my initial post in this thread - go back and read it if you don't believe me.
2.) Many hacks own high priced guns and can't use them for what they are
3.) Many great shooters with their less expensive guns can and do outshoot hacks using high priced shotguns - reference: Mr. 870
4.) Many moderately priced trap guns will do the same thing for the average trap shooter as a much more expensive model
5.) Gun snobbery exists in trap shooting, just like instrument snobbery exists in the music world, causing people to spend more money than they should on equipment they can't fully use and may not even fully understand (another point to consider on this is the subject of optics for rifles - many shooters spend LOTS of money for features they can't use, nor do they even fully understand.)

None of what I listed is incorrect or untrue, and those are the explicit points I have been making throughout this discussion.

What I know about guns is this - I'm almost 40. I grew up with guns, my Dad was a competition shooter, I did some low level competition rifle shooting before I got out of high school. He was also a gunsmith as well as a collector and probably forgot more about guns than you or I will ever know. That doesn't make me an expert by any means, but it did give me a tremendous amount of exposure on a daily basis, as well as a great deal of usage with all manner of guns - everything from .22 rifles, to large caliber handguns, to scoped rifle marksmanship to shotguns - both shooting clay pigeons recreationally with both pump guns and break action shotguns, and hunting upland game - pheasants primarily.

I have enough general knowledge to be able to call a bullshitter for what they are, and to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff, i.e., knowing when hype overtakes practical usage for the average shooter - unless I'm mistaken, the largest percentage of the people on this board are average shooters, so that's where my comments have been aimed.

Make of that what you will.

From what ive seen on the limited times ive shot skeet is alot of these guys are throwing money away. It seemed they were just trying to outspend each other to put on a show yet only a handful could shoot worth a crap. If some guy shows up with a 7k shotgun and doesnt outshoot a guy with a old A5 then whats the point?

The way I see it, you don’t play football in hockey skates. Shooting clay sports with a proprietary shotgun will only give good/better results. I think that past a certain point you are only buying a name though. Buy the best you can afford. I think you take ANY shooter and give them the cheapest shotgun you can find, let them shoot with it then give them a specialized shotgun that is fitted to them. I think that they will show improved results based solely on equipment. I don’t however think that equipment alone will make a shooter capable.

Trickg,

In your words regarding your experience: "which is virtually none other than some recreational stuff I did years ago".

In other words you don't know jack, but you think you are qualified to give opinions to someone who might want to enter and learn the sport becaue you did a Google search and linked Rudy Etchen to the 870. How does this help the OP? Did your search also show you that Rudy also shot a Ljutic? Oh, that's a trap gun, not a musical instrument.

New and/or inexperienced shooters often get caught up in the cost of some guns. It's not fair, accurate or becoming to spout this "Gun Snob" stuff. Besides not being true, it's stupid and poorly serves the shooting community. I don't know why the sum of $3200 pushed your button. If you want to know the truth, a large percentage of the shooters in our area are shooting guns that cost well over $10,000. Does that make them Super Gun Snobs? No, it makes them shooters who love the game and are dedicated enough to shoot the best they can. Not one of them gives a Rat's Ass about what gun you shoot, so why not extend the same courtesy to them. Every one of them would congradulate you if you shot a good score. Would you return the compliment? If you could force yourself to have an open mind and participate in the game for a few months, I think you would see things differently. Since you live in Glen Burnie, you're lucky enough to be within an easy drive of several good places to shoot trap.

I think we've beaten this one to death.

$3200 didn't push a button with me - did you go back and read my original response in this thread like I asked? Didn't think so, so I'll quote it here.

trickg said:

It would appear, based on some of the things I have read, that a multi-thousand dollar shotgun does truly offer some things that your run of the mill $300 870 Express doesn't:

-- better accuracy and ergonomics that assist the shooter in that accuracy
-- much better materials and workmanship
-- better reliability
-- better longevity - the expensive trap and skeet shotguns are designed with the idea that they will see thousands and thousands of rounds in their lifetime. A hunting shotgun, even if used regularly for hunting over years and years, won't see the kind of use that trap and skeet shotguns see. I've read that a regular run-of-the-mill shotgun will break down under the kind of usage that an expensive trap gun will eat up, and then ask for more.

Like with most things, you tend to get what you pay for. As an example, I'm a musician. I "could" get by gigging on a student model trumpet that costs in the neighborhood of $300-$600. However, I gig on a hand made trumpet that sells new for about $2600, for the reason that it's simply going to make my life on the gig easier. Overall it's made better so I have much better reliability, and flat out, it's easier to play, which translates into better music and a much better gig for me.

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I don't have an issue with $3200, or even $5000 or $7000. What I have an issue with is that there guys who are going to ridicule someone who shows up with a basic pump gun

jjboxman said:

I once had a guy see me coming with my 870 and he told me "school is in session". I left the line breaking 25, he left head down with a 22,

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and those are the kinds of guys who kill it for everyone else. I have an issue with people spending money on guns they don't need because they don't shoot well enough to make use of what it offers to them.

I have never had an issue spending money to attain a usable level of quality. I bought my 14 year old son a $2200 electric guitar because I knew it would be an instrument that he could grow with and that he could really use, even in a professional capacity. However, I would not have bought if for him if he was still hacking away, trying to string a few chords together into a song, in spite of the fact that he wanted one because all of the hype told him he was supposed to have one. I know a guy who has actually snobbed about that guitar because it was "only" a Les Paul and didn't cost as much as some of the really high end amps and signature guitars he owns - a guy who has far more toys than tallent and nevermind the fact that my son can play rings around him on a $100 Squier Bullet Strat. He'd sound better and it would be easier on his $2200 Les Paul, but at the end of the day, it's the player, not the guitar, and especially when there is that kind of disparity between their ability levels that has nothing to do with the equipment they use.

You are the one who has repeatedly come on here snobbing and espousing your opinions (that you try to pass off as "facts") when it comes to high priced trap guns. Yes - you have beaten it to death and I think that many of us would rather you simply stopped posting about it.

i think everyone need to chill out about this!
if some one has the money and they want to spend it why should the rest of us say a thing.
if some one out there really thinks a $400 dollar gun will beat a $3200 gun they have never shot a $3200 gun. myself included.

*sigh*

It's not the gun - it's the shooter. The gun only helps what the shooter can already do. A horrible shot will still be a horrible shot with a $3200 gun and it probably won't make a lick of difference, but a $3200 gun WILL enhance a good shooter's ability.

The whole issue here has a been a discussion about what a fine firearm does that an inexpensive one won't, and my contention is that it ALWAYS depends upon the shooter. An inexperienced hack will not become better simply by trying to buy some talent with a fine gun, in which case a $3200 gun does nothing.

Again, if a hack shooter wants to waste some money, I have no problem with them spending a couple month's pay for a firearm that is well beyond their ability to fully use. My personal belief is that one should pay their dues and learn their craft - whatever that craft may be - on something that is better suited to their ability level, but I also agree that great equipment can only help and will never hurt.

Is that really too much for folks to comprehend?

trickg said:

*sigh*

It's not the gun - it's the shooter. The gun only helps what the shooter can already do. A horrible shot will still be a horrible shot with a $3200 gun and it probably won't make a lick of difference, but a $3200 gun WILL enhance a good shooter's ability.

The whole issue here has a been a discussion about what a fine firearm does that an inexpensive one won't, and my contention is that it ALWAYS depends upon the shooter. An inexperienced hack will not become better simply by trying to buy some talent with a fine gun, in which case a $3200 gun does nothing.

Again, if a hack shooter wants to waste some money, I have no problem with them spending a couple month's pay for a firearm that is well beyond their ability to fully use. My personal belief is that one should pay their dues and learn their craft - whatever that craft may be - on something that is better suited to their ability level, but I also agree that great equipment can only help and will never hurt.

Is that really too much for folks to comprehend?

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I agree. I am not against high end guns, just suggesting new shooters with limited funds would use their money better on shells and targets.

wyomingboy said:

trickg,

I not only remember Rudy, but I knew him. That's was a differnt time. In those days, half of the trap guns out there were M12s and 870s. Not so today. Virtually no one who is serious competes with them now.

That said, an 870 or 1100 trap model is a good choice for a beginner who may or may not get serious. Once the bug bites, 99.9% of the shooters use a break open single bbl or an O/U combo.

BTW, anyone in the market for a trap gun would be well served to deal with Rudy's son, Joel Etchen, who has a thriving clay target gun business in Pa. Good guy, decent prices. Big Beretta, Kolar and Ljutic dealer.

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+1 for Joel. he is a good guy, shop is on route 30 in Ligoner Pa. Worth the drive.