Thank you all for your educated opinions on this topic. I have some experience with Savage and Remington rifles. I have a first year 1958 Savage 110 in .270 with a 4 digit serial #, I have a Savage 220F as well as a Savage Mark 2 TR as well so I am familiar with the platform and think Savage makes amazingly accurate rifles for the amount of money they ask for them. My Remington 700 CDL is in .270 Winchester as well and shoots as well as a sporter weight barreled hunting rifle has any right to. For me, the Savage 110 BA only makes sense in 338 Lapua. I love the high weight which tames the high recoil levels of this round and the farthest I walk with my hunting rifles is 100 yards across a field to my box stand which is setup exactly like a bench rest so portability is not going to be an issue in my case. I like the high wow/fun factor of the round in comparison to .308 and even .300 Win Mag. However, the comments from E. Shell makes it seem that ballistically there is little difference between 300 Win Mag and 338 Lapua until 1,000 yards. I'm not sure I'm willing to pay the huge ammo price difference for what amounts to the shits and giggles of shooting the larger round. I know I don't want a .308 but the Savage 110 BA in .300 Win Mag is kinda like buying a Chevy Camaro 6 cylinder, I feel like eventually I'm gonna wish I bought the V8! I want to make my shot at 500 count and if I can't place a round into 4 " at 500 yards EVERY time I pull the trigger with the utmost confidence, then I don't want to even try. A whitetail deer has a vital zone of around 8". If I can make 4" hits at 500 yards, then that's twice as accurate than I need to be. I want that margin of error to consider myself an ethical hunter which every hunter should strive to be. The last thing I want to do is wound a deer and see it limp off into the woods never to be seen again. The question I have is about hunting bullets. From what I've read about A-max bullets, they are not designed for deer hunting and neither are Sierra Matchking. So that takes two of the desired high BC bulets away but it does leave Berger VLD and Ballistic Tips as 2 possible options. I don't know, I'm torn, I started this after 3 years of getting tired of watching my buddy pull out of his gun case a Hart Long Range Hunter custom rifle in either 7mm STW or .300 RUM and shoot impossibly small groups out to 300 yards..That led me to do things halfway, only getting the required optics and an accuracy package and not go full custom...Of course, that has led me to have inconsistent results out to 300 yards and now I'm ready to take it to the next step. I know it is not my shooting because we have the same exact mounts and the same exact scope setups on our rifles..(Hart rings/mounts and Leupold vx3 8.5-25x50mm) and when I have shot his rifles I shoot just as well as he does. My budget for the rifle is 2K and I am going to sell my scope and get a higher magnification Nightforce...Thoughts????
Savage 110 BA .338 Lapua Magnum or .300 Winchester Magnum..anybody?
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E.Shell
Ultimate Member
Paragraphs, my friend.
Huge, heavy platforms notwithstanding, the .300 WinMag is amazingly efficient, and one has to ask a LOT to find a point at which the .300WinMag will be lacking. It can also be easily built into a regular tactical rifle package (26" #7 tube) with a net weight of about 18-19#, scope, bipod, slung up and loaded. Heavy enough to be stable, easy to shoot well and absorb some recoil, but not hard to handle and still plenty portable.
Berger hunting bullets are excellent and there's no reason not to use them IF you can get them and IF your gun will shoot them. Many rifles will not shoot them well, due to their throat geometry, and then there's availability. It seems like every time I or anyone I know finds a good load, we get either design changes between lot numbers or no one stocks them. All I can say is that if you find a good load with any particular bullet, buy a few million.
On the average, Nosler Ballistic Tips are amazingly accurate. I don't see them as being much tougher than an A-Max, but they do have the "varmint" calibers and the "big game" calibers. I get excellent results with 150s and 165s in the .308 and 165s and 180s in the .30-06 Ackley. The 225 shot well in my .35 Whelen, and worked well on deer at almost any angle. I know for a fact that they will expand well and kill deer at longer ranges, because I've seen it done. One of my shooting partners took a nice buck at 808 lasered, shooting 180s down a power line with his .300 WinMag match gun. I was shooting130s 120s from my 6.5-300 Weatherby at over 3,500 FPS and they still shot 1/2 MOA or better. Those would blow to pieces at distances less than about 300 yards, but would kill deer like lightning as far as you could place one.
It's also enough money to get a decent factory gun and make a few improvements. Find a well used Remington 700 in some random magnum caliber for $500 or so. Sell the stock for $50 ($450). Put a non-adjustable McMillan A3 or Manners T2 on it for about $600 ($1,050). Have a 'smith rebarrel it with a good barrel for $500 or so ($1550), and Marine-Tex bed it for you for about $225 ($1775). Have the trigger tweaked for about $75 ($1850), if it's an older Remington the OEM trigger will set up nicely. So, a little horse trading, you'd have a solid 1/2 minute .300 WinMag ready to scope for around $1800-$2000.
Another option if you like the styling that Savage 110 BA is the Armalite AR-30 in .300 WinMag or .338 Lapua. I'd be inclined to agree that a rifle of that design would be better suited to a .338 Lapua, but a buddy's AR-30 in .300 WinMag is a pussycat to shoot and recoil is less than a .308 in a conventional rifle design.
I like NF NXS scopes and have a few. IMHO, the 5.5-22x50 is the best balance of magnification and size. I've shot the next step up, the 8x32x56, and it's great for a daylight optic dedicated to long range, but 8x is a bit high for a bottom end on a scope that might be used for low light, movers or extremely close shots.
Most new shooters will be more comfortable with an "MOA based reticle" (NPR-1 or NP-R2), in lieu of the "Mil based reticle" (Mildot or MLR). It is more intuitive and easier to read in finer increments than a mil based reticle.
If you think you'll use the reticle for holdovers or ranging, you'll want to have at least the 5.5-22x and something with intermediate graduations (like the MLR) for precision. The better one can see, the easier it is to measure precisely, and the more and finer the graduations, the more exact we can be. I have a 3.5-15x mildot, and it's very hard to range with in comparison to the MLR in a higher magnification.
The .338 LM has higher energy levels at all distances, but it really doesn't pull ahead of the .300 WinMag in drop or drift until you get way out there, further than most of us shoot, especially at game.
Yeah, those 6 cylinder Camaros were a mockery, especially with glass packs, L-60s and a 4-spd. I think they would chirp reverse if you knew what you were doing.
Huge, heavy platforms notwithstanding, the .300 WinMag is amazingly efficient, and one has to ask a LOT to find a point at which the .300WinMag will be lacking. It can also be easily built into a regular tactical rifle package (26" #7 tube) with a net weight of about 18-19#, scope, bipod, slung up and loaded. Heavy enough to be stable, easy to shoot well and absorb some recoil, but not hard to handle and still plenty portable.
Precision will be a product of rifle performance, not necessarily any given cartridge. If anything, it becomes harder to make the big cases perform. I have seen quite a few .300 WinMags deliver less than 3/4 MOA, which is about a 4" group at 500 yards, and many shoot better. There will always be the human factor, and there will always be the wind, but getting the rifle itself to shoot that well is routine for most 'smiths.
This is simply a matter of shooting to a point of knowing your limitations and abiding by them. I get quite a few hunters take classes who tell me they'd like to shoot pronghorns or elk at great distances. I tell them they'll either learn how to do it or learn they cannot, but either way the game is better off. Most of them relent when they start seeing the challenges associated with extreme hunting ranges, and when they see just how far 600-800 yards is in the field.
There are a couple considerations here. While the A-Max and MatchKing are surely not designed as hunting bullets, when we talk "long range", we're usually talking about taking standing broadside shots, and this does not place a lot of importance on bullet performance. Not like hunting brush and possibly taking a "Texas heart shot". I'm not too keen on the MatchKings for hunting bullets, but the A-Max is usually a good performer. Some people believe they are too soft, but at longer ranges, we'd like to see them open easily. Again, we're usually waiting for a good presentation and are never forced to take a bad angle or hurried shot. If a shot is taken at normal hunting ranges, the bullet will likely blow, but we're not talking about normal hunting ranges, which average about 75 yards.
Berger hunting bullets are excellent and there's no reason not to use them IF you can get them and IF your gun will shoot them. Many rifles will not shoot them well, due to their throat geometry, and then there's availability. It seems like every time I or anyone I know finds a good load, we get either design changes between lot numbers or no one stocks them. All I can say is that if you find a good load with any particular bullet, buy a few million.
On the average, Nosler Ballistic Tips are amazingly accurate. I don't see them as being much tougher than an A-Max, but they do have the "varmint" calibers and the "big game" calibers. I get excellent results with 150s and 165s in the .308 and 165s and 180s in the .30-06 Ackley. The 225 shot well in my .35 Whelen, and worked well on deer at almost any angle. I know for a fact that they will expand well and kill deer at longer ranges, because I've seen it done. One of my shooting partners took a nice buck at 808 lasered, shooting 180s down a power line with his .300 WinMag match gun. I was shooting
The key is more the groups and shooting consistently than any particular caliber. Both my .260 and 6.5-284 will shoot 3/8 MOA, and my .308 will consistently shoot 1/2 MOA, and they'll all hold this as far as the shooter can.
There are a lot of factors that can cause this. If your existing rifle shoots poorly for you, it can be a rifle issue, an ammo compatibility issue, reticle focus, parallax, or, the rifle may not fit you properly. Did your partner try your rifle?
$2k for the rifle alone? That's plenty of money to take a rifle you have and set it up first class with an action truing, decent barrel and stock.
It's also enough money to get a decent factory gun and make a few improvements. Find a well used Remington 700 in some random magnum caliber for $500 or so. Sell the stock for $50 ($450). Put a non-adjustable McMillan A3 or Manners T2 on it for about $600 ($1,050). Have a 'smith rebarrel it with a good barrel for $500 or so ($1550), and Marine-Tex bed it for you for about $225 ($1775). Have the trigger tweaked for about $75 ($1850), if it's an older Remington the OEM trigger will set up nicely. So, a little horse trading, you'd have a solid 1/2 minute .300 WinMag ready to scope for around $1800-$2000.
Another option if you like the styling that Savage 110 BA is the Armalite AR-30 in .300 WinMag or .338 Lapua. I'd be inclined to agree that a rifle of that design would be better suited to a .338 Lapua, but a buddy's AR-30 in .300 WinMag is a pussycat to shoot and recoil is less than a .308 in a conventional rifle design.
I like NF NXS scopes and have a few. IMHO, the 5.5-22x50 is the best balance of magnification and size. I've shot the next step up, the 8x32x56, and it's great for a daylight optic dedicated to long range, but 8x is a bit high for a bottom end on a scope that might be used for low light, movers or extremely close shots.
Most new shooters will be more comfortable with an "MOA based reticle" (NPR-1 or NP-R2), in lieu of the "Mil based reticle" (Mildot or MLR). It is more intuitive and easier to read in finer increments than a mil based reticle.
If you think you'll use the reticle for holdovers or ranging, you'll want to have at least the 5.5-22x and something with intermediate graduations (like the MLR) for precision. The better one can see, the easier it is to measure precisely, and the more and finer the graduations, the more exact we can be. I have a 3.5-15x mildot, and it's very hard to range with in comparison to the MLR in a higher magnification.
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JamesBailey
Form Factor'ed!
Sorry to get off topic, but Ed introduced the 6.5mm's. Ed, are the 130's you mentioned the Norma's? I don't have much ballistic info on the Norma's as they aren't covered in Applied Ballistics. I know you said you liked the 130 Norma's, it is nice and cheap (compared to the SMKs, Bergers and Lapuas), and it sounds like the perfect bullet for my 6.5x47 Lapua. Problem is, I read an article saying that you need a REALLY long free bore to shoot them accurately: http://www.6mmhot.com/6.html
Any comments Ed?
E.Shell
Ultimate Member
No, and now that you mention it, I see I've mistyped the bullet weight. I was discussing Nosler BTs, and 120 is the correct weight for those, not 130. I'll change it above, but it was wrong when you read it.
LOL. All of a sudden, if we don't know the bullet length and can't use a G7 form factor, we're completely scrod and have no clue where the bullet might go... Lord help us if our PDA goes down.
I DO like the Norma 130s for target work, and my .260 shoots them like it was designed to. I have not experienced any problems getting them to shoot, nor am I aware of any special throating requirements. I have a standard throat in the .260, whatever George cuts, and I seat everything about .010" off the lands to start.
One thing I will say about the Normas, at least the 130s: Be sure to pay careful attention to lot numbers. I have had about ten different lots of these bullets, and there is a visible difference between some of them, most notably nuances in the way the heel is formed.
Yoshi
Invictus
I've been eyeing up my next rifle, which won't be 'til mid to late next year, but this is one I am considering because it's much cheaper than the Savage 110 BA. Are they as accurate out of the box as a Savage?
JamesBailey
Form Factor'ed!
Thanks Ed-
I ordered the 130 Norma's from Midway - once my bolt rifle is done, I hope to use some of them at CVA Tactical!
rch184
Active Member
Buy a 50BMG upper and put it on an AR lower, you will save a bundle on ammo and can shoot through engine blocks at a mile.
E.Shell
Ultimate Member
Save a bundle on a ammo AND shoot a mile?Ever buy .50 BMG match ammo, and/or components and equipment to load it?
AP only runs $3.00/shot, but it won't do it. Ball is more than $3.00, and ball shoots even worse than AP.
The (AP/API) ammo required to penetrate an engine block is NOT the same (match) ammo that would be necessary to use to make hits at all. Match ammo starts at $5.50-6.00 a shot, and that ASSUMES the (usually finicky) rifle doesn't need something custom loaded to shoot it's ( 2 or 3 MOA?) potential.
Hornady .338 LM match ammo runs $4.00/shot, Federal and Rem just over $6.25/shot., so, there really are NO "bundles" to be saved if performance is expected to be adequate.
The inconvenience of a single shot AR-15 upper in .50 BMG is hard to get around (I've had two) and most cater to the budget minded crowd with accuracy not much of a priority.
The ALS is not bad, as far as 30#+ rifle packages go, but that upper (with enough accessories to actually work) exceeds $2k - substantially more than a complete magazine fed AR-30 rifle in .338, which will run circles around it in portability, accuracy, comfort and volume of fire, not to mention ammo costs.
When we step into dedicated conventional .50 BMG rifles, especially repeaters, costs generally skyrocket, and accuracy does not always follow. Even with the very best ammo, most .50 BMG rifles are not even capable of hitting an engine block at 1,760 yards consistently.
Accuracy of military grade/milsurp .50 BMG ammo is quite limited and if one is not running carefully loaded match ammo, it is not going to be possible to consistently make long shots successfully.
Ball is typically good for 2 to 3 MOA at closer distances (55" group at 1,760 with no wind), but variations in muzzle velocity open this up vertically as we shoot further out and you may see a ten foot tall group at 1,760. AP is probably the best shooting milsurp, and may shoot down about 1-1/2 MOA, but this is still close to a 30" group at 1,760, and the vertical problem is just as bad as with ball. API/APIT and Tracer is not even worth fooling with at long range.
Specialty bullets, like Hornady and Barnes, greatly improve accuracy and reduce vertical dispersion. If the rifle in question is capable of 1 MOA or better (95% are NOT), these bullets will deliver excellent accuracy. Of course, they are made of soft materials and not especially well suited to penetrating hard materials beyond what their mass will provide, so we might HIT an engine block, but we probably won't go through it. Even AP will not fully pass 1/2" T-1 steel plate at 1,500 yards plus, about as far as we were able to land then on the 3' x 3' sheet.
Once we solve all these ammo & rifle problems inherent to the .50 BMG when applied to extreme distances, we are FINALLY ready to take a look at the task at hand: All one needs to do to make a hit on an engine block at a mile at that point is be able to range the target within 2%, dope the wind within 1 MPH (across the course), figure spin drift, Magnus (vertical and horizontal components) and Coriolis, and then fire a clean shot. Yes sir, it's just that easy.
Bottom line, it's not magical or even legendary, and it not at all the weapon of choice for extreme ranges. It is chronically overrated as a long range accuracy solution by folks who believe the hype and/or make assumptions. For every single spectacular shot we hear about, I'd bet hundreds or even thousands of rounds hit nothing at all, and most of the hits we do get are products of multiple attempts. "Multiple attempts" can be direct fire with the spotter walking them in for the shooter, or they can be ranging shots fired in another direction, then the system brought to bear on the actual target.
Plenty of power, sure, but accuracy is not in line with the smaller calibers and the .50 BMG tops out closer than one might think. The payload capability of the fifty makes it a great anti-material weapon on the battlefield, but that's kind "it" and the fact that most material targets are BIG (radar/commo shacks, vehicles, stockpiles) conceals it's dismal accuracy.
Most folks cannot really justify the .338 Lapua when the actual performance benefits are evaluated. Even a .300 WinMag doesn't get a full workout by most people who own them, and the .300 WinMag will do a fine job to 1,400-1,500 and even a little further if air density is low enough to stay supersonic.
SgtKope
Active Member
I have been getting great results with the Berger 210gr VLD and H1000 in my 300WM out to 1500yds (it has a couple hundred yards left I am sure). I have also heard good things about the 208 AMAX. I haven't shot the 300 in a while because Uncle Sam had me doing pre-deployment war games in NJ for the past two months.
Ed,
I am coming due to shoot in Jan, so I will probably set a date for the range soon. If you are interested let me know.
Ed,
I am coming due to shoot in Jan, so I will probably set a date for the range soon. If you are interested let me know.
E.Shell
Ultimate Member
Marc357 is running the 208 A-Max over H1000 in his Kreiger barreled .300 WinMag and does extremely well with them. He had been running 210 Bergers until he had some QC issues (big profile changes between lot numbers) and availability problems. AFAIK, the trajectory data is so similar as to be interchangeable.
Sure, thank you! I'll send an e-mail your way.
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trbon8r
Ultimate Member
Darn it Ed, you need to stop being so practical.
Here I've been fascinated watching some of the long range shooting videos with the .338 Edge, and now due to your sage advice when I decide I want more than a .308 I'll probably end up settling for a boring .300 Win Mag instead of something more interesting. Thanks a lot for ruining the party with facts. Users who are viewing this thread
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