USAFRavenR6
Active Member
Don't know but I would like to get his take on this as well if at all possible.
PERMIT APPLICATION RETURNED
- Thread starter FNH High Power
- Start date
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Don't know but I would like to get his take on this as well if at all possible.
FNH High Power
Member
Copy and send the link I posted in the OP. You have my permission if needed. Or give me his email address and I'll send him one.
FNH High Power
Member
Give me until tomorrow evening and I'll scan and send him my entire application package, including the return letter, unless someone beats me to it.
Taurus85
Member
I'll send a copy now. will let you know if it was sent ok.
Taurus85
Member
Letter sent to: delegatemikesmigiel@gmail.com at 11:24PM.
Maybe I am looking at this WAY too simplistic. I read through about 10 pages, and then admittedly skipped the next 11, but I tend to look at this way, since this letter was sent by a LT McCauley and not the AG, or the GOV. In essence, I put myself in his shoes.
Your the head of the Licensing Division, and you just got caught in the middle of massive poop storm. A judge has just issued part of the current law "unconstitutional". The pro gun group drops presumably thousands of apps in your lap and says "process please". You check with the AG's office, and they say, "Put a hold on those, because the Judge just issued a stay". So, you put a hold on those that arrived BEFORE the stay. Applications continue to pour in. So, you check to the AG again, and he says, "Judge issued a stay, that means it's business as usual, meaning G&S". Now, do you begin rubber stamping "DENIED" on every application, or do you send them back with a note saying (as I read the letter):
"If you want me to, I will take your money and stamp your application 'DENIED', due to lack of G&S, or I can save you some coin and return it to you until after the Judge rules on the stay, because there aint NOTHING happening until after that date."
I guess I'm looking at it like yes, I'd like to get my permit, but does anyone want to apply just to run up the 'DENIED' percentage? In essence, what is the advantage in submitting the application now, having it undoubtedly denied, and then going through the appellate process? Is the goal then to jam up the system? Help me out, please, and forgive me for being so dense, but what does it buy one to continue to beat their head against the proverbial brick wall?
Now, before the usual cast of characters start 'capping off', no one understands beating their head against the wall more than me. I spent the last two and a half years pursuing a permit, through three appeals, taking a hit by dropping my case to allow the Woollard case to play through unimpeded.
I guess the short question is, "What is the purpose, at this point, to continue to try and apply, when it clear that the State is not going to act on ANYTHING until after the 23rd?"
Pulling the pin, and tossing in the hand grenade, maybe the LT did everyone a favor by returning the application? He did say (my interpretation), after all, that if you really, really, really, really, want him to continue to process your application, just let him know, and he'll stamp your application 'DENIED', keep your check, and STILL nothing will happen.
Your the head of the Licensing Division, and you just got caught in the middle of massive poop storm. A judge has just issued part of the current law "unconstitutional". The pro gun group drops presumably thousands of apps in your lap and says "process please". You check with the AG's office, and they say, "Put a hold on those, because the Judge just issued a stay". So, you put a hold on those that arrived BEFORE the stay. Applications continue to pour in. So, you check to the AG again, and he says, "Judge issued a stay, that means it's business as usual, meaning G&S". Now, do you begin rubber stamping "DENIED" on every application, or do you send them back with a note saying (as I read the letter):
"If you want me to, I will take your money and stamp your application 'DENIED', due to lack of G&S, or I can save you some coin and return it to you until after the Judge rules on the stay, because there aint NOTHING happening until after that date."
I guess I'm looking at it like yes, I'd like to get my permit, but does anyone want to apply just to run up the 'DENIED' percentage? In essence, what is the advantage in submitting the application now, having it undoubtedly denied, and then going through the appellate process? Is the goal then to jam up the system? Help me out, please, and forgive me for being so dense, but what does it buy one to continue to beat their head against the proverbial brick wall?
Now, before the usual cast of characters start 'capping off', no one understands beating their head against the wall more than me. I spent the last two and a half years pursuing a permit, through three appeals, taking a hit by dropping my case to allow the Woollard case to play through unimpeded.
I guess the short question is, "What is the purpose, at this point, to continue to try and apply, when it clear that the State is not going to act on ANYTHING until after the 23rd?"
Pulling the pin, and tossing in the hand grenade, maybe the LT did everyone a favor by returning the application? He did say (my interpretation), after all, that if you really, really, really, really, want him to continue to process your application, just let him know, and he'll stamp your application 'DENIED', keep your check, and STILL nothing will happen.
yellowsled
Retired C&R Addict
Those that are getting these letters are still $75 bucks into it that will not get refunded from livescan. Why not go all in and go for it and ruin their stats at the same time. No, I dont think anyone went all in just to ruin their numbers but people are already 50% invested in the process already.
And so going "ALL IN", buys you what?
I've dropped several times that, so far, and still no permit.
X-Factor
I don't say please
I certainly see your point. I think the reason is to affect Md's statistics as far as permit approvals and that there IS solid, across the board interest by regular folks that just want to defend themselves. I also think you're maybe giving MSP a BIT too much leniency, though it's possible your scenario is true. Why would MSP blatantly flaunt the law they are here to uphold merely as a "favor"? I certainly think they get alot of marching orders from up high.
Because Owe'Malley and Gansler are thowing a temper tantrum like a three year old because they are losing.
Everything they have tried has failed miserably, and these guys are not used to losing.
They think they can still play games and are in denial over a civil right. Hopefully the court will smack the combo with reality here real soon (and have their illegal behavior reined in).
5.7
Just trying to be free
- Jan 21, 2012
- 197
You know it. There is no way a state employee at that level of the chain would open himself and the state up to possible litigation and liability without direction from above. If this were a ship in the Navy, the MSP Director is a Dept head, the CO of the Ship is the Gov and the AG is the XO. Orders start at the top and are effected by the chain.
I personally think this is their interpretation of what the temporary stays means legally to them, so they are acting on it from the date the temp stay was granted (i.e. biz as usual till further notice). Maybe they are doing this to stop the additional swamping workload as it is taxing the MSP with this influx of apps all at once as this is a burden to the org. Maybe it is politically motivated. Who really knows but the the Gov, AG and MSP leadership.
Bottom line, as you say, they were given a flaming bag of pooh and I am glad to be a turd in that sack.............I only hope I get to stick to their shoes.
That's just it (marching orders from on high). Here's my thought... The letter is not from one of the investigating officers, which is the NORMAL route of rejection (been there, done that). It's from the Licensing Commander, so it carries some official weight, but he still is presumably taking orders from on high. Also, it's a rubber stamped form letter, which denotes the current official position (at least in my mind), as well as, the willingness of not wanting his hand to fall off, due to signing a boat load of letters.
The bottom line is, LORD KNOWS that I have been ever vigilant over this issue, and in many instances, rather firm and direct with the handling of my situation, giving NO ONE a free pass, so to speak. The point is, I just personally put myself in this guys shoes, and just don't see a darn thing happening until AFTER the 23rd of May. If one's motives are, however, to harass and harangue, rock on. Otherwise, what is the point?
Again, I see NOTHING happening, until AT LEAST after the 23rd of May.
Look Patrick and Esqapp have said what they intend to do!!! Anybody that does'nt jump on the bandwagon is screwing the cause. Hopefully MSI will have an announcement today for a coordinated group response.
hairba111
XGMG2
Are the tears from hearing his prose or is it the stench?
BUFF7MM
☠Buff➐㎣☠
I don't see where you are getting this as harassment, it's their job to apply the law not make it. Once they returned the application they pretty much are going against their own rules, sure it was nice of them to give him his money back, but he is still out his time, postage, and the livescan fee. If anything the harassment is the other way around. They are pretty much like the "big bully" on the playground, they have knocked him down and are pretty much saying if you get back up I'm just going to knock you down again.
Maverick0313
Retired and loving it
You know it. There is no way a state employee at that level of the chain would open himself and the state up to possible litigation and liability without direction from above. If this were a ship in the Navy, the MSP Director is a Dept head, the CO of the Ship is the Gov and the AG is the XO. Orders start at the top and are effected by the chain.
I personally think this is their interpretation of what the temporary stays means legally to them, so they are acting on it from the date the temp stay was granted (i.e. biz as usual till further notice). Maybe they are doing this to stop the additional swamping workload as it is taxing the MSP with this influx of apps all at once as this is a burden to the org. Maybe it is politically motivated. Who really knows but the the Gov, AG and MSP leadership.
Bottom line, as you say, they were given a flaming bag of pooh and I am glad to be a turd in that sack.............I only hope I get to stick to their shoes.
I have a 5.7 and I can't write this well.....good job!!!!
You know it. There is no way a state employee at that level of the chain would open himself and the state up to possible litigation and liability without direction from above. If this were a ship in the Navy, the MSP Director is a Dept head, the CO of the Ship is the Gov and the AG is the XO. Orders start at the top and are effected by the chain.
I personally think this is their interpretation of what the temporary stays means legally to them, so they are acting on it from the date the temp stay was granted (i.e. biz as usual till further notice). Maybe they are doing this to stop the additional swamping workload as it is taxing the MSP with this influx of apps all at once as this is a burden to the org. Maybe it is politically motivated. Who really knows but the the Gov, AG and MSP leadership.
Bottom line, as you say, they were given a flaming bag of pooh and I am glad to be a turd in that sack.............I only hope I get to stick to their shoes.
Trust me, I have no problem in addressing the elected officials, because they obviously have ulterior motives (getting re-elected), but I just see this rather plainly as what you outlined above.In essence, what would be the Commander's "political" motivation? He wasn't elected. Now one could argue him playing "office politics", but as you rightly point out, with this particular issue, as hot as it is, with "all eyes" on it, etc... I don't think (my personal opinion interjected here) ANYONE is going to go rogue, and risk stepping on their wee wee with golf shoes, instead of just reiterating what they have been told, from on high.
Don't these guys (the Commander) serve at the leisure of the governor? There is a chain of command, and they do as they are told. There is also a law in place that you need G&S for a handgun permit. There is a stay in place, so the law is still valid. If they go against that, not only do they go against the governor, they are not following the law. There is a very large ball rolling that has gained quite a bit of momentum. It is going to roll over their wee-wees and do more damage than golf shoes.
I am addressing the issue, going forward. IANAL, so do with that what you will. If, however, the implication is that "I am not down with cause", then I'll just hold my breath, breathe between my clinched teeth, and do us BOTH a favor.
The question I pose, GOING FORWARD, is what good does it do, at this point, to continue to make application?
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