The final SB 281: A detailed summary for non-lawyers

ddeanjohnson · Apr 5, 2013

gsrcrxsi said:
thank you for your response. although i dont really understand why this is targeting out of state protective orders. if someone is worried about their safety, wouldnt someone in-state be more of a "threat" if due to nothing else other than increased proximity?

i propose a hypothetical.

guy and girl date. are NOT married, or otherwise legally bound.
things go sour, and one of them decides they want a protective order against the other
does the targetted person then lose all of their firearms rights?

for reference, how does this scenario CURRENTLY (Before SB281) affect firearms rights?

Although posed as a hypothetical, this is getting too much into specific personal situations. The whole subject of protective orders is important and somebody should write an article on it, but it won't be me. Briefly, as I understand it, in Maryland various classes of family members or other close associates can get a temporary protective order ex parte (without advance notice to the targeted person), pretty much on request, and the judge can order removal of firearms if he wishes. If the order is extended, after a hearing at which the targeted person has a right to be represented ("non ex parte"), removal of firearms is automatic. There is also a federal disqualification based on non ex parte protective orders, but I cannot get into that now.

Rack&Roll · Apr 5, 2013

Do we need clarification on what constitutes a "verified purchase" before October 1? It would appear that even if you paid fully for an AR-on-order and had some sort of bill of sale you would still be unable to take possession after October 1. That's because you cannot submit signed and dated MD and Federal paperwork without a serial number of a PARTICULAR firearm. So if you ordered one that had not come off the assembly line by Oct.1 I think you are up a creek. The new language in the ban talks about the registration paperwork as being the proof of purchase, correct?

bohman · Apr 5, 2013

ddeanjohnson said:
You would not be able to lawfully transfer a handgun with a 10-plus magazine in Maryland, whether it comes with a new gun or an old gun, or is all alone by itself. (Exceptions for law enforcement, military, etc.) To be sold in Maryland, new handguns would have to be sold with magazines manufactured or suitably modified to comply with the limitation. This is the same way that the existing ban on 20-plus magazines has worked.

Thanks. That certainly appeared to be the intent of the law, but the way it was worded tripped me up a little.

BeardedMags · Apr 5, 2013

madness3120 said:
Why wouldnt you want to get it expunged? You fill out like 2 papers, pay a fee and takes about 90days, nothing diffcult at all.[/QUOT

It was nothing major or violent. I never saw the need to get it expunged until now.

ddeanjohnson · Apr 5, 2013

Rack&Roll said:
Do we need clarification on what constitutes a "verified purchase" before October 1? It would appear that even if you paid fully for an AR-on-order and had some sort of bill of sale you would still be unable to take possession after October 1. That's because you cannot submit signed and dated MD and Federal paperwork without a serial number of a PARTICULAR firearm. So if you ordered one that had not come off the assembly line by Oct.1 I think you are up a creek. The new language in the ban talks about the registration paperwork as being the proof of purchase, correct?

See paragraph no. 7 in my summary -- the language is, "has a purchase order for, or completed an application to purchase" as of October 1, 2013." The "verifiable" language was stricken. I agree that there are unanswered questions about how this will be implemented, which will have to be addressed in regulations or administrative directives from the MSP.

The final official text of the bill is here. The language you are asking about is on page 14, lines 9-14. See also page 14, lines 1-4.

shershot99 · Apr 5, 2013

Magazine question

So if someone could read in between the lines on my question here.... The current law says no magazines over 20 rounds can be PURCHASED in Maryland. now that goes to 10 rounds. But this bill DOESNT ban possession and use, correct?? That means, we can do what we do now as long as we dont try and mail order a 30 round pmag and ship it into the state??

Do you see what I am getting at??

Thanks!

ddeanjohnson · Apr 5, 2013

shershot99 said:
So if someone could read in between the lines on my question here.... The current law says no magazines over 20 rounds can be PURCHASED in Maryland. now that goes to 10 rounds. But this bill DOESNT ban possession and use, correct?? That means, we can do what we do now as long as we dont try and mail order a 30 round pmag and ship it into the state??

Do you see what I am getting at??

Thanks!

There is nothing in the bill to prohibit the use of lawfully purchased magazines, except in commission of a crime. You are essentially correct that the law will remain as it is now, except that the limit will drop from 20 to 10 rounds.

smokey · Apr 5, 2013

ddeanjohnson said:
3. A centerfire rifle will be a banned "copycat" if it meets any one of these three tests:
(1) Has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds; or
(2) has an overall length of less than 29 inches; or
(3) has two of the following attributes: (i) folding stock, (ii) grenade or flare launcher, or (iii) flash suppressor.

4. A semiautomatic RIMFIRE rifle will never be an "assault" weapon under this bill.

5. A semiautomatic pistol will be a banned as an assault/copycat weapon only if it has a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds; this applies to both rimfire and centerfire.

6. A semiautomatic shotgun will be banned as an assault/copycat weapon if it has either a folding stock or a revolving cylinder.

7. "Assault" weapons and "copycat" firearms possessed as of October 1, 2013, will be grandfathered in, with no registration requirement, for both current Maryland residents and people who move to Maryland in the future. Their lawful owners may continue to possess them and to transport them. This would also apply to any such firearm for which the would-be owner "has a purchase order for. or completed an application to purchase" as of October 1, 2013" (note: that phrase was inserted on the floor on April 3, in place of the earlier phrase referring to a "verifiable purchase order"). However, a resident of another state who lawfully acquires such a weapon after October 1, 2013, and who then moves into the state with it, would commit an offense. (It would be a crime even to bring such a non-grandfathered rifle into the state for a shooting competition, although just driving across the state with an ultimate destination in another state, with the gun unloaded and cased separately from ammo, would in theory be protected by a federal law, §18 U.S.C. 926.) Grandfathered assault weapons may be passed on by inheritance. A dealer may sell an "assault long gun" or "copycat" that he "lawfully possessed on or before October 1, 2013." It is not clear to me whether this means the dealer can sell this inventory to Maryland residents; I think the more likely reading is that the dealer may only sell them to residents of other states, subject to the usual federal transfer requirements, or to in-state law enforcement buyers.

Hypothetical:

Someone has an m&p9 right now with multiple 17 rnd magazines. They buy a m&p9 after october 1 with a 10 round magazine. They go to the range with both guns and accidentally put the 17 round magazine in to the newly purchased m&p9. Does that automatically make the new m&p9 a non-grandfathered "assault weapon copycat" according to this language.

The magazine use issue for grandfathered guns appears to be what the law has always been....but the way it's explained concerning if a gun is considered a banned copycat or not, inserting a >10 round mag in to it makes it a copycat and makes you a criminal.

Clarity on this?

shershot99 · Apr 5, 2013

ddeanjohnson said:
There is nothing in the bill to prohibit the use of lawfully purchased magazines, except in commission of a crime. You are essentially correct that the law will remain as it is now, except that the limit will drop from 20 to 10 rounds.

Thanks! I have to take a trip to my farm in Virginia soon.... I dont think Virginia's law is 10 or 20 or 30 for that matter :innocent0

MJD438 · Apr 5, 2013

smokey0118 said:
Hypothetical:

Someone has an m&p9 right now with multiple 17 rnd magazines. They buy a m&p9 after october 1 with a 10 round magazine. They go to the range with both guns and accidentally put the 17 round magazine in to the newly purchased m&p9. Does that automatically make the new m&p9 a non-grandfathered "assault weapon copycat" according to this language.

The magazine use issue for grandfathered guns appears to be what the law has always been....but the way it's explained concerning if a gun is considered a banned copycat or not, inserting a >10 round mag in to it makes it a copycat and makes you a criminal.

Clarity on this?

The section you quoted refers to fixed magazines while you are discussing removable magazines...

Blaster229 · Apr 5, 2013

smokey0118 said:
Hypothetical:

Someone has an m&p9 right now with multiple 17 rnd magazines. They buy a m&p9 after october 1 with a 10 round magazine. They go to the range with both guns and accidentally put the 17 round magazine in to the newly purchased m&p9. Does that automatically make the new m&p9 a non-grandfathered "assault weapon copycat" according to this language.

The magazine use issue for grandfathered guns appears to be what the law has always been....but the way it's explained concerning if a gun is considered a banned copycat or not, inserting a >10 round mag in to it makes it a copycat and makes you a criminal.

Clarity on this?

I think the important word is " FIXED magazine over 10 rounds" ?

kalister1 · Apr 5, 2013

5. A semiautomatic pistol will be a banned as an assault/copycat weapon only if it has a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds; this applies to both rimfire and centerfire.

smokey0118 said:
Hypothetical:

Someone has an m&p9 right now with multiple 17 rnd magazines. They buy a m&p9 after october 1 with a 10 round magazine. They go to the range with both guns and accidentally put the 17 round magazine in to the newly purchased m&p9. Does that automatically make the new m&p9 a non-grandfathered "assault weapon copycat" according to this language.

The magazine use issue for grandfathered guns appears to be what the law has always been....but the way it's explained concerning if a gun is considered a banned copycat or not, inserting a >10 round mag in to it makes it a copycat and makes you a criminal.

Clarity on this?

You are mixing Fixed Magazine with Detachable Magazine

ddeanjohnson · Apr 5, 2013

smokey0118 said:
Hypothetical: Someone has an m&p9 right now with multiple 17 rnd magazines. They buy a m&p9 after october 1 with a 10 round magazine. They go to the range with both guns and accidentally put the 17 round magazine in to the newly purchased m&p9. Does that automatically make the new m&p9 a non-grandfathered "assault weapon copycat" according to this language. The magazine use issue for grandfathered guns appears to be what the law has always been....but the way it's explained concerning if a gun is considered a banned copycat or not, inserting a >10 round mag in to it makes it a copycat and makes you a criminal. Clarity on this?

The restrictions on detachable magazines of over 10 rounds are entirely separate from the sections banning assault/copycat firearms. Do not confuse them.

Please read the summary (the original post) carefully. Under the bill, the capacity of a detachable magazine, inserted into a pistol (or a rifle, for that matter), has nothing whatever to do with whether that firearm falls into the definition of a banned assault/copycat firearm. Nothing whatever. As far as the classifications defining banned guns go, the only magazines that matter are fixed magazines. As far as pistols go, as I wrote: "5. A semiautomatic pistol will be a banned as an assault/copycat weapon only if it has a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds; this applies to both rimfire and centerfire."

Now, if a manufacturer refused to ship a certain model of handgun to Maryland except with a magazine with a capacity of more than 10 rounds, that might end up preventing you from obtaining that handgun. But it would not be because the pistol was thereby transformed into an "assault" or "copycat" firearm. It would be because the magazine purchase was prohibited.

circadia · Apr 5, 2013

smokey0118 said:
Hypothetical:

Someone has an m&p9 right now with multiple 17 rnd magazines. They buy a m&p9 after october 1 with a 10 round magazine. They go to the range with both guns and accidentally put the 17 round magazine in to the newly purchased m&p9. Does that automatically make the new m&p9 a non-grandfathered "assault weapon copycat" according to this language.

The magazine use issue for grandfathered guns appears to be what the law has always been....but the way it's explained concerning if a gun is considered a banned copycat or not, inserting a >10 round mag in to it makes it a copycat and makes you a criminal.

Clarity on this?

No because it doesn't have a fixed magazine of >10 rounds. There's nothing in the law to prevent you from owning and continuing to use >10 round magazines in firearms purchased before or after Oct 1.

dc44 · Apr 5, 2013

all I want to know is how " manufacture" and " assault long gun" vs "assault long gun / copycat" come into play. I'm getting the impression that these are two separate and distinct banned categories. I just want to form 1 my receivers without OAL issues on otherwise-grandfathered guns.

swinokur · Apr 5, 2013

Not that MD gives a rats a$$, think of the lost sales taxes by shooters buying standard capacity mags out of state.

More nit wittery from the MD GA.

Pilot7576 · Apr 5, 2013

So if you buy a pistol with the limited ten round mag, there is no problem going to another state and purchasing a full capacity mag for that gun? I read this as being the same as ar mags...cant buy or sell them in MD but outside the state you can do anything you want and can possess them in state. Am I reading something wrong here?

Pilot7576

smokey · Apr 5, 2013

haha ooookay, just making sure. I was trying to think about what handguns actually have a fixed magazine and didn't know if it was a typo.

DimaK · Apr 5, 2013

So after 10/1/13 I want sell my Glock with a 17 rd mag on gunbroker to anyone out of state. Will that still be possible or will it have to be sold w/o a mag?

ddeanjohnson · Apr 5, 2013

dc44 said:
all I want to know is how " manufacture" and " assault long gun" vs "assault long gun / copycat" come into play. I'm getting the impression that these are two separate and distinct banned categories. .

Yes, that is exactly right. There are two separate and distinct banned categories of firearms: (1) the "assault long gun" list (and any "copy" of a rifle on the list); and (2) any firearms that meet the respective "copycat" definition for rifle, pistol, or shotgun, described accurately in the original post. A firearm might be banned under one category or both, but either one has the same effect. A firearm specifically exempted on the list could, in theory at least, still be banned by the so-called "copycat" test.

And both of these categories are entirely separate from the restrictions on detachable magazines.

The final SB 281: A detailed summary for non-lawyers

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