HQL lawsuit

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  • elwojo

    File not found: M:/Liberty.exe
    Dec 23, 2012
    678
    Baltimore, Maryland
    Exactly. I'm quite confident that very thing is alleged in the Complaint. Really shouldn't be more complicated than that.

    I think leftists in general are terrified of making 2A rulings given the current composition of the Supreme Court.

    The court case itself lists that one of the individuals wants a smaller (or larger?) frame 9mm handgun. He cannot buy that handgun because of he doesn't have an HQL. However, the judge thinks that if you haven't applied for an HQL, then you don't have standing because...well. That linkage wasn't clear to me. To me, that would seem like damages and standing there.

    However, I think MSI should have had one of these people apply for an HQL without supplying the funding or training portion. Having a piece of paper saying "denied" is worth all of Heller.
     

    fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    It's not like the SC hasn't said that purchasing a handgun isn't protected by the Constitution. Would the lower courts treat any other right with such apparent disdain ... bet not.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
     

    fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    I would love to ask that judicial activist if he approves of a Voter Qualification License (i.e., Universal Voter ID). Hypocrite.

    With a $50 fee for the state issued license, plus $54 more for fingerprinting - not including training fees and the need to schedule separate time for training. But those injuries are all hypothetical of course, lol.

    Btw, the judge is a she ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Lipton_Hollander
    https://m.openjurist.org/judge/ellen-lipton-hollander

    ... and lobbied to the Democratic machine for a position in the judiciary. Although this might be standard fare for both parties - don't know.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    The court case itself lists that one of the individuals wants a smaller (or larger?) frame 9mm handgun. He cannot buy that handgun because of he doesn't have an HQL. However, the judge thinks that if you haven't applied for an HQL, then you don't have standing because...well. That linkage wasn't clear to me. To me, that would seem like damages and standing there.

    However, I think MSI should have had one of these people apply for an HQL without supplying the funding or training portion. Having a piece of paper saying "denied" is worth all of Heller.

    The judge is supposedly applying Supreme Court precedent. It sort of makes sense, although it does seem overly restrictive in cases like these. You need to have a actual injury as opposed to a hypothetical one. Until you actually subject yourself to the requirements it is just hypothetical. I am not sure you need to get denied to have an actual injury. Even if you have one you can sue because you were actually subject to an injury. They required you to do something that violated the Constitution.

    Reading the opinion, the judge appears to present the picture that there were no real injuries that actually occurred, it was just hypothetical ones. I have not read the supporting information to understand how biased the opinion actually is.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    Illinois Supreme Court found a license to purchase was an infringement. At least there is some precedent. Since much of organized anti-gun is funded by Bloomberg, I expect that we will see more states adopt an HQL-like scheme. Hopefully SCOTUS will hear it at some point.
     

    fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    I quickly took a look at how poll taxes were stopped (before the 24th amendment was ratified) and it was partly through equal protection ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harper_v._Virginia_State_Board_of_Elections

    I suspect it would be very difficult to find data on disproportional effects on MD handgun purchases before/after FSA 2013 based on income as this information isn't collected. However, I would imagine that there is data on the overall number of 77R applications for handguns in 2010-2012 vs 2014-2016 (throwing out 2013 due to the surge in handgun purchases prior to implementation of FSA 2013).

    Forget if the 77R attempts to capture racial/ethnic data like the 4473 federal form.

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    CrabcakesAndFootball

    Active Member
    Jun 14, 2017
    697
    The court case itself lists that one of the individuals wants a smaller (or larger?) frame 9mm handgun. He cannot buy that handgun because of he doesn't have an HQL. However, the judge thinks that if you haven't applied for an HQL, then you don't have standing because...well. That linkage wasn't clear to me. To me, that would seem like damages and standing there.

    However, I think MSI should have had one of these people apply for an HQL without supplying the funding or training portion. Having a piece of paper saying "denied" is worth all of Heller.

    I'm sure in hindsight Mark wishes that'd have had someone who applied for the HQL, but I can easily see a world where this judge then claimed that the dispute was moot as to that person because they'd obtained an HQL.

    I'm sure the online HQL app will not even let itself be submitted without payment of the fee, so I think in this judge's world you'd need to submit something to MSP entitled HQL application that makes clear that you haven't done any training and will not pay the fee. You'd need something back from MSP that says its denied.

    Obviously all very stupid and nonsense. But thank gosh for Dick Heller and his "denied" receipt!
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    I quickly took a look at how poll taxes were stopped (before the 24th amendment was ratified) and it was partly through equal protection ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harper_v._Virginia_State_Board_of_Elections

    I suspect it would be very difficult to find data on disproportional effects on MD handgun purchases before/after FSA 2013 based on income as this information isn't collected. However, I would imagine that there is data on the overall number of 77R applications for handguns in 2010-2012 vs 2014-2016 (throwing out 2013 due to the surge in handgun purchases prior to implementation of FSA 2013).

    Forget if the 77R attempts to capture racial/ethnic data like the 4473 federal form.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

    It's not a hard concept to grasp that for some folks $150 and trying to find a place to take the class are going to be difficult for some people with low income who want to protect their families. Judges should be able to reach that conclusion. It would be even better if we had the LGQL pass this session, since one can argue that they can buy a long gun for home defense without a HQL.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,240
    Montgomery County
    Even the notion that one of the plaintiffs (Atlantic) didn't have standing because sales have been up ... is preposterous. One could just as breezily assert that sales would have been up a great deal more except for the burden the HQL places on Atlantic's prospective customers.
     

    fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    It's not a hard concept to grasp that for some folks $150 and trying to find a place to take the class are going to be difficult for some people with low income who want to protect their families. Judges should be able to reach that conclusion. It would be even better if we had the LGQL pass this session, since one can argue that they can buy a long gun for home defense without a HQL.

    Equal protection might very well have been one approach in the HQL suit - but not sure how standing was demonstrated in those prior suits against poll taxes. Agree with the LQL point, but that would be for when the case is argued on the merits and had gone beyond standing.

    The judge is almost mocking in tone when she describes the plaintiffs discussing the costs moving forward, including one (not naming private citizens) that did hunter safety as a training requirement but couldn't provide more than a ballpark range for other training options. What's very real and not hypothetical is the $50 licensing fee. Other costs - fingerprinting and training - will of course be variable.

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    CrabcakesAndFootball

    Active Member
    Jun 14, 2017
    697
    Even the notion that one of the plaintiffs (Atlantic) didn't have standing because sales have been up ... is preposterous. One could just as breezily assert that sales would have been up a great deal more except for the burden the HQL places on Atlantic's prospective customers.

    Had the exact same thought. I love when these judges assume the role of an expert witness; another indicator that she was determined to boot this thing without touching the merits.

    I think Judge Troxell's biting dissent in Kolbe refers to the majority's "military judgment." That was a good laugh line.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Even the notion that one of the plaintiffs (Atlantic) didn't have standing because sales have been up ... is preposterous. One could just as breezily assert that sales would have been up a great deal more except for the burden the HQL places on Atlantic's prospective customers.

    That was not the only reason that Atlantic was denied. They were supposedly not able to identify any particular people that did not buy firearms due to the HQL. The complaint was fine because they said this occurred, but when it came down to the details, there were no actual people identified. The requirement for standing is apparently actual people.
     

    fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    So gun stores should have forms for visitors to, upon discovering that they can't buy a handgun in MD without an HQL, put their name, address, and gun model that they wanted to purchase on a complaint list. Even if we capture 10% (which would have been higher in 2014), that number could be substantial.

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    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    If I am ever elected Benevolent Dictator my first rule would be no posts on court opinions if you haven't read them.

    When I am elected Dictator Supreme, my first rule would be no posting about something you know less than 3% about. It covers legal opinions, guns, reloading, and everything else under the sun. Granted, most people know more than 3% about everything under the sun.

    Now, just because somebody reads the court opinion, do you think they actually understand it?

    Our side reads briefs from MSI and agrees completely with what is written in the brief. Meanwhile, there is the opposing brief too. If something is black and white, it usually isn't seeing the inside of the courtroom.

    I have not read this opinion yet, and will not for a week or more. Looking forward to this one. What I have been hearing through the grapevine is that the entire lawsuit was dismissed because the Court found that not a single one of the plaintiffs had standing. Wonder if discovery had a lot to do with that and what the actual reasoning was.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    As a tax payer and free citizen, no judge or politician can decide for me when or if I can keep and carry arms. That's for me to decide. I'm not a lawyer.

    You are correct. They only decide how much prison time you get to do for possessing one illegally. Lots of convicted felons in possession get to experience this. Think the sheriff in Carroll County is going to experience it pretty soon in the very same Court for transferring a machine gun from the department to himself personally.
     

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