MSP Appeals to the Office of Administrative Hearings

swinokur · Jan 18, 2019

Of course all sides are welcome to opine.

I recognize a dose of reality is needed but it can be phrased in a way to minimize discouraging people who might be willing to put some skin in the game

It’s what we do!

motorcoachdoug · Jan 19, 2019

The word Palpable need is not in Websters but the word Palpable is.. Here is a page from Websters online::::::The word palpable has been used in English since the 14th century. It derives from the Latin word palpare, meaning "to stroke" or "to caress"—the same root that gives us the word palpitation. The Latin verb is also a linguistic ancestor of the verb feel. Palpable can be used to describe things that can be felt through the skin, such as a person's pulse, but even more frequently it is used in reference to things that cannot be touched but are still so easy to perceive that it is as though they could be touched—such as "a palpable tension in the air." So 4ca used a medical term in its ruling
Woollard v. Gallagher

Schipperke · Jan 19, 2019

motorcoachdoug said:
The word Palpable need is not in Websters but the word Palpable is.. Here is a page from Websters online::::::The word palpable has been used in English since the 14th century. It derives from the Latin word palpare, meaning "to stroke" or "to caress"—the same root that gives us the word palpitation. The Latin verb is also a linguistic ancestor of the verb feel. Palpable can be used to describe things that can be felt through the skin, such as a person's pulse, but even more frequently it is used in reference to things that cannot be touched but are still so easy to perceive that it is as though they could be touched—such as "a palpable tension in the air." So 4ca used a medical term in its ruling
Woollard v. Gallagher

In the context it is written, it just means clear,obvious or discernable need. Not sure why people get so fixated on "palpable". The state gets to determine if your need is prudent "clear and obvious", that carrying a gun is necessary as a reasonable precaution against danger. If MSP denies you, the Judge is probably going to use the same standard. If people want to play semantics "self defense" is an obvious need, do so. Haven't seen that work with MSP, but maybe a Judge will chew on it.

ironpony · Jan 19, 2019

No longer a need for fired shell casings when purchasing new firearm :bannana:

That's a positive attitude right?

danb · Jan 19, 2019

Schipperke said:
No one likes the answer, but I'll reiterate and it's in the Woollard finding, and the Court unanimously agreeing:

Reducing the number of guns on the street provides several secondary effects that significantly reduce handgun violence.

So with that, I don't think any data, study etc. is necessary, it has been ruled, and needs changed farther up the judicial process. Anytime there is a gun off the street, the public is safer. MSP is not trusting you to carry, they will still argue public safety is more at risk with a permit holder carrying. Their logic therefore is to limit that carry for the good of public safety. The "Delta" of the de minimis time a permit holder not being allowed to carry was noted, but I don't thing they care. One drop raises the ocean and all that..

THis,

swinokur · Jan 19, 2019

There is no question that the only relief we will get will be from SCOTUS. But for those who have what they feel is the requisite need that meets whatever the ALJ deems appropriate, continuing to fight seems like a better holding action than rolling over .

What the variable seems to be is the ALJ interpretation of MSP’s authority to determine restrictions that may be arbitrary and capricious after G&S. The argument might be the issuance of the permit already puts a gun on the street. Kinda like closing the barn door after the horse gets out. But IANAL

For now Wollard is the controlling authority on G&S.

That part doesn’t seem to be in dispute.

Hopefully it may be the apparently arbitrary and capricious nature of the restrictions that they may be sympathetic to but as mentioned they give deference to the agency.

But it seems to require deep pockets if you’re not going the Pro Se route.

Wonder if the Pennak letter will hold water?

Good luck to the litigants

danb · Jan 19, 2019

And that is where I do not understand the MSP and AG penchant for appeals here.

If you've gone through and spent over $500 on training and finger printing, 8 hours in a classroom, 52 pages of paperwork, and interview process, a board hearing, Chances are you are going to fight till your very last legal brief the restrictions on your permit. It's absurd and ridiculous to think that after having gone through all that people are simply going to give up.

I simply don't understand the mindset-They are desperately trying to hold on to a relic of the past, they're just being dicks, or they're trying to show results to justify the money Bloomberg gave them for the campaign. Maybe a little of all of those.

swinokur · Jan 19, 2019

Ever read the Curran manifesto?

danb · Jan 19, 2019

I have, but I still would like to think that the AG has some rational long term strategy. All of these appeals are ultimately sowing the seeds of their own destruction.

welder516 · Jan 19, 2019

They are also ignoring my brothers and my request to add a second business to our permit . I send in the documents for both of us and both business write out what i am looking for and still no add for the 2nd business . They do not call us to ask for more detail , which leads me to believe they have enough information and when the permit arrives no add. SMH

They also (no proof) deliberately let the end date run out on permit so we end up having to send our PA permits back . That is even allowing much more time then they request . They are slow walking renewals IMHO .

swinokur · Jan 19, 2019

The long term strategy is control, control, control until its pried from their hands by the SCOTUS. They suffer from the typical liberal mindset that law abiding citizens are part of the problem along with the criminal sewage

Makes no difference. The serfs are not to be trusted

It’s what they do.

Straightshooter · Jan 19, 2019

welder516 said:
They are also ignoring my brothers and my request to add a second business to our permit . I send in the documents for both of us and both business write out what i am looking for and still no add for the 2nd business . They do not call us to ask for more detail , which leads me to believe they have enough information and when the permit arrives no add. SMH

They also (no proof) deliberately let the end date run out on permit so we end up having to send our PA permits back . That is even allowing much more time then they request . They are slow walking renewals IMHO .

Just the opposite with me. When I applied, I listed 2 businesses. I provided documentation for one. I was notified to provide documentation for the second business or my permit would be denied, implying that my first business was not G&S for a permit. I provided the documents and my permit was issued with both businesses listed. Don't try to figure these fools out, you'll go nuts.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

ironpony · Jan 19, 2019

Ok , going for my second positive post. Within 10 years SCOTUS will strictly scrutinize MD.
Bad part is Ginsburg will still be ruling on cases. Ok, I’ll settle for 50/50.

Sorry welder but I’m sure you understand some may be utterly baffled by the ever changing MSP control of the masses.
Back to cutting firewood.

Hawkeye · Jan 19, 2019

danb said:
I still would like to think that the AG has some rational long term strategy.

Our AG has stated that he thinks that anyone who wants to carry a gun for protection is "nuts." There's no strategy, he just doesn't like guns or those who want to carry them.

welder516 · Jan 19, 2019

Straightshooter said:
Just the opposite with me. When I applied, I listed 2 businesses. I provided documentation for one. I was notified to provide documentation for the second business or my permit would be denied, implying that my first business was not G&S for a permit. I provided the documents and my permit was issued with both businesses listed. Don't try to figure these fools out, you'll go nuts.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

In previous years they have contacted us and ask for more documentation by email I then scan the additional data and they acknowledge receiving it . That is why when they don't ask for more we figure we have satisfied the initial request .
But you are right no rhyme or reason .

ironpony said:
Ok , going for my second positive post. Within 10 years SCOTUS will strictly scrutinize MD.
Bad part is Ginsburg will still be ruling on cases. Ok, I’ll settle for 50/50.

Sorry welder but I’m sure you understand some may be utterly baffled by the ever changing MSP control of the masses.
Back to cutting firewood.

Yes , lots of us feel they have no real standards or practices . I think it is possible some Troopers are worthless and some are not and try to at least read the paperwork .

Schipperke · Jan 19, 2019

Hawkeye said:
Our AG has stated that he thinks that anyone who wants to carry a gun for protection is "nuts." There's no strategy, he just doesn't like guns or those who want to carry them.

He's gonna be a fun Governor for sure..

welder516 · Jan 19, 2019

Schipperke said:
He's gonna be a fun Governor for sure..

I am afraid you are right about that , I may be limiting my time in Maryland in 5 or 6 years .

SCV/SAR Patriot · Jan 19, 2019

Meanwhile I’m OC with my wife Odarlin1 at Blue and Gray Restaurant in Gettysburg. What a difference a few miles make!

Straightshooter · Jan 19, 2019

SCV/SAR Patriot said:
Meanwhile I’m OC with my wife Odarlin1 at Blue and Gray Restaurant in Gettysburg. What a difference a few miles make!

Crossing the Mason Dixon line is like flying out of a fog bank into clear blue skies.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

swinokur · Jan 19, 2019

Schipperke said:
He's gonna be a fun Governor for sure..

He’ll be your govenor too!

LOL

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