HB 819 HAndgun Review Board

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  • Mike OTDP

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 12, 2008
    3,318
    If this gets passed, we may have a crack at Wollard II.

    The whole Wear & Carry licensing system is vague (and should have been rejected by the courts for that reason alone, aside from 2A issues). "Good and sufficient" is not enough direction to make sound policy.
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    ok, someone please remind me why replacing HPRB with administrative law judges is bad.

    Seems to me long term this is a blessing in disguise. Administrative Law judges are going to follow the law and force MDSP to follow the law. I am not sure I want to interrupt antis while they are making a mistake.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,407
    Glen Burnie
    ok, someone please remind me why replacing HPRB with administrative law judges is bad.

    Seems to me long term this is a blessing in disguise. Administrative Law judges are going to follow the law and force MDSP to follow the law. I am not sure I want to interrupt antis while they are making a mistake.

    Which law will the uphold?

    The HPRB gives appellants a "jury of their peers" so to speak. They put reason into an unreasonable situation.
     
    Last edited:

    ngman

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 19, 2013
    602
    Western Howard County
    Why they think this is an important issue that will get people to polls in Nov. is beyond me. Its a vague technical process thing, and difficult to explain. Hogan will simply say politics as usual, does not address Bodymorgue crime, and move on. More like somebody grandstanding for the Dem primary.

    Sen. Madaleno was at least one idiot pushing this as he runs for Governor. Another thread had a video (I can't find it now) of him promoting it, and he seemed to have no idea what he was talking about.
     

    Rack&Roll

    R.I.P
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    22,304
    Bunkerville, MD
    ok, someone please remind me why replacing HPRB with administrative law judges is bad.

    Seems to me long term this is a blessing in disguise. Administrative Law judges are going to follow the law and force MDSP to follow the law. I am not sure I want to interrupt antis while they are making a mistake.

    I am aware of this as a win-win.

    HPRB under a Republican... Win
    ALJ under a Republican, post Heller... Win
    ALJ under a Democrat, post Heller...Win.
     

    GTOGUNNER

    IANAL, PATRIOT PICKET!!
    Patriot Picket
    Dec 16, 2010
    5,492
    Carroll County!
    MSP Secretary needs to change G&S and stop stupid restrictions. That will solve the problem. Hogan can do it. ...

    Sent from the 3rd Rock
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    MSP Secretary needs to change G&S and stop stupid restrictions. That will solve the problem. Hogan can do it. ...

    Sent from the 3rd Rock

    But ALJs can force the secretary to follow the law and apply it consistently as well.

    I am not yet convinced I should be against this just because Madaleno (who is an idiot) is for it.

    With ALJs, we could easily end up with more permits, fewer restrictions, and fewer appeals. And no worries about changing the administration.
     

    MJD438

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 28, 2012
    5,849
    Somewhere in MD
    If I'm not mistaken, If Hogan veto's this bill, the legislature cannot override due to it being an election year.

    Only if the bill is presented to the Governor after 2359-03APR2018. While session is active, the Governor has 6 days to evaluate a presented bill and sign (enacts the law), refuse to sign (enacts the law), or veto (prevents enactment). Any bill presented within the last 6 days of session grants the Governor 30 days to review and sign, refuse to sign, or veto. Any veto performed after session may be overriden in a Special Session (which have their own rules for being called). But, once Session 2019 gavels in and the elected officials are sworn in, it is a "new legislature" even if the exact same people are in the exact same roles, and no veto overrides are permitted. (http://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/43const/html/02art2.html#sec17).
     

    mxrider

    Former MSI Treasurer
    Aug 20, 2012
    3,045
    Edgewater, MD
    Only if the bill is presented to the Governor after 2359-03APR2018. While session is active, the Governor has 6 days to evaluate a presented bill and sign (enacts the law), refuse to sign (enacts the law), or veto (prevents enactment). Any bill presented within the last 6 days of session grants the Governor 30 days to review and sign, refuse to sign, or veto. Any veto performed after session may be overriden in a Special Session (which have their own rules for being called). But, once Session 2019 gavels in and the elected officials are sworn in, it is a "new legislature" even if the exact same people are in the exact same roles, and no veto overrides are permitted. (http://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/43const/html/02art2.html#sec17).

    Thank you for a full accounting of how this works.
     

    MJD438

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 28, 2012
    5,849
    Somewhere in MD
    But ALJs can force the secretary to follow the law and apply it consistently as well.

    I am not yet convinced I should be against this just because Madaleno (who is an idiot) is for it.

    With ALJs, we could easily end up with more permits, fewer restrictions, and fewer appeals. And no worries about changing the administration.

    Some of the concerns have to do with how the legal process unfolds AFTER an ALJ hearing:
    Depending on why the Circuit Court is reviewing the Agency’s decision (issue being appealed), a court reviewing an administrative agency's decision will usually look at the decision in the light most favorable to the agency. The court cannot reverse the decision of an agency just because it would have decided differently. The court will affirm the agency’s decision as long as it is considered to be legal and reasonable given the evidence. Read the Law: Maryland Code, State Government, Section 10-222, Maryland Rules 7-201 through 7-209
    from The People's Law Library of Maryland - https://www.peoples-law.org/appealing-administrative-decision
     

    BeoBill

    Crank in the Third Row
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 3, 2013
    27,058
    南馬里蘭州鮑伊
    ...The court will affirm the agency’s decision as long as it is considered to be legal and reasonable given the evidence.

    Those two benchmarks are mutually exclusive when it comes to granting a W&C in Maryland. We resemble NJ and NYC more with each passing session.
     

    DC-W

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    25,290
    ️‍

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    Some of the concerns have to do with how the legal process unfolds AFTER an ALJ hearing:

    from The People's Law Library of Maryland - https://www.peoples-law.org/appealing-administrative-decision

    Possibly. But we are talking about a constitutional right, where there is a federal circuit split, and D.C. of all places is shall issue. Circuit courts may be deferential, but the higher you go, the less deferential appeals courts get. Even less so in the present environment with a federal circuit split.

    They did not appeal Wrenn because they did not want shall-issue to go national.

    Maybe I am wrong. Seems to be the potential downside scenario is ALJs force MDSP to apply an objective standard consistently. I dont know how that turns out. It is clearly a risk. I can make a case it means more permits, fewer hard to justify restrictions, fewer appeals. But the upside is another bite at Woollard, Scherr, and Snowden. I think that an appeal through OAH will be a better vehicle for an appeal for a variety of reasons.
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    -Going ALJ means further burdening applicants with a process that will require a lawyer. HPRB is accessible to most people and isn’t difficult to navigate.

    This part is true - maybe we can establish a defense fund for applicants through MSI. I'll give generously. I consider this a pre-lawsuit funding since appeals to get another bite at Woollard, Scherr, and Snowden will come from these applicants. We will get our pick of plaintiffs to appeal. I have no doubt out of hundreds of applicants and appeals, one will offer a good appeals case.

    This fact alone will make MDSP and OAH more circumspect about denials.
     

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