2A MD blames who?

Bob A said:

Can't help you with the questions you mention. I remember JJ from 2013 - the only time I've met him - and thought that he was an asset. My reason for posting was merely that it seemed that we do more damage to our cause by flinging crap at one another in a very public forum than JJ did with his admittedly unjustified email.

It's not just the True Believers who read and post here. It must bring great joy to the MSP Secretary and the Mothers Against to see us eating our own.

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We're not eating our own per se. We are standing up to demand a unified body. When he came out with that email, he took it upon himself to call our group a danger to the cause.

How would you feel if something like that was worded in an interdepartmental memo at work. Suppose a team with several groups are working on a project and one group leader puts out a memo say that the other group is going to ruin the project by doing their part of the project.

That project would fail. JJ is a relic of the past. We are not going to get anywhere by playing nice with the delegates. We can't play dress up and sit in meeting with them and nod our head when they try to dismantle our 2nd Amendment rights. This approach has been tried for years upon years with very little success. Just look at the magazine restrictions. Where did his kind help us with this. MSI has done more for our 2A right and the fight than any other group in the history of our plight. Who has defended our rights over the last 5 years?

Playing politics with politicians is never going to work.

Deep Background ...

Just in case Norton's reference to Jim Purtilo needs clarification ...

Norton said:

Jim Purtilo tried this kind of tactic 10 years ago and it drove his one man show into the dustheap of history after he attacked this community and MSI with similar, if not more egregious, false accusations.

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CCRKBA - James M. Purtilo

TheHighRoad - MD: Purtilo mugging for the spotlight again

And from right here in MDShooters in 2007 ... What Happen to Tripwire's Slant on Things?

Has Tripwire changed? or Am I reading it wrong? Over the years I have gotten The Tripwire and found that it seemed to be on the money on gun related issues. Beat up on anti-gunners/hunters and tooted the horn for any Progun person or group. It was a PROGUN publication that kept many of us informed on what was going on. But this last year it's been a little off center with it's articles and views, they seem to be a little truth, little spin and a little madeup. Plus the biggest change is that it started hammering pro-gun/hunting groups and people. Spending money to unseat a ProGun elected offical (Dwyer, just check his voting record), Using space in it's publication to beat up on gun and hunting groups instead of the Anti-Gun/Hunting groups and people. I didn't read any real attacks or information on the anti's. This didn't make sense to me. We all don't agree on everything each group does but they are all trying to further the shooting sports and ownership in the State of Maryland, the best that can be done in the state. Did it change hands? Are there new people writting it? Please ring in if you can make some sense of this or let me know if I am wrong and just can't read English anymore.

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I was kind of put off about how Tripwire ragged on Ehrlich over most of the Ehrlich administration. http://www.myguns.net/Articles/ehrlich1.htm
..........
Ehrlich was walking on eggshells in Maryland. He was a proven Second Amendment supporter, but if he came out whole hog, the liberals would have a field day (which they pretty much did anyway). Tripwire essentially bit the hand that was feeding them. I hope they are happy now that O’Malley is in there (God help us all).

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This is what happens when self-importance mixes with being too cozy with the same people who want to take away our rights. It's Deja Vu all over again

What's ironic is the unintended consequence alleged may be one of the best things that ever happens. Madaleno is playing the ultra short game in a ridiculous fashion. He's taking the power away from the next Democrat Governor to flip the current bias 180 degrees. Let them pass it indeed. You want to appeal in front of Vinny, Liz, Jen et al or a Judge?

A liberal judge appointed by a liberal democrat regime?

As I understand it it's a non elected administrative law judge, a non elected official

I'll takle my chances with the HPRB

I also find it curious that JJ refers to attendees as a "small group of activists" without any specific group attribution.

To me smacks of second hand info and shooting from the hip.

Maybe he should try attending the next meeting to see the "intimidation"first hand before taking 2nd hand reports from his pals

I don't know the author. I've seen him testify past couple years against gun bills. Appears some on this thread know him more intimately and come straight out of the box disliking him and use the comment to construct a pillary or have concern over the power of his influence ? Then I read on he's "The Old Guard", so again why the concern. I read it, and meh.. All the discussion on MGA push-back via a Hogan engineered HPRB and public activism happened a year ago. If anything the author is over a year late with his critique, and writes a "told you so", which has really gotten a reaction he probably enjoys. The piece has zero power over anyone to do as they please, so some of the visceral angst it causes some is beyond me. I've been to at least six hearings starting over a year ago. To me it looked as if attendance was an organic thing spawned from postings on MDS, so I'm not really sure who he is pointing a finger at.

Going before a stacked Democrat HPRB vs a Judge may be no different in Maryland, but I'd still take a Judge as I know many Democrats that are not rabid antis. A board filled with MPGV, well you know what you got there.

The current HPRB is not Democrat stacked. In fact they are removing restrictions and granting permits at an unprecedented rate. I'll take what we have now over what might have in the future.

I also object to his lack of specificity in his accusation.

Just my .02

YMMV

ETA-I don't think JJ has enjoyed this. That's why some have defended him, which is fine by me. I also have other info I cannot divulge that tells me he wants this to go away.

Schipperke said:

Appears some on this thread know him more intimately and come straight out of the box disliking him and use the comment to construct a pillary or have concern over the power of his influence ?

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This didn't start with his latest email or the one from 2016. JJ has had a hard on for MDS for many years.

Which is weird because the only time his name comes up is when he pulls these stunts.

Having received JJ's email and reading this thread, I believe some of you are too close to this to look at it with any objectivity.

JJ just didn't wake up one morning to an epiphany as to the intent of MDS members attending HPRB meetings.

It is not hard for someone to read through HPRB threads and come away with the wrong impression as to the intent of some those in attendance. Too much belittling of the process, members of the board, members of the MSP and the anti-2a folks.

Like JJ, this is just one old man's opinion.

Stoveman said:

This didn't start with his latest email or the one from 2016. JJ has had a hard on for MDS for many years.

Which is weird because the only time his name comes up is when he pulls these stunts.

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2A Maryland having an active account here and lurking, instead of answering the rebuttal, or even going here first with his concerns is bewildering. As another reader here noted to me, kind of hit and run style. Why not hash it out here. It would be interesting if the invective in such a back and forward dialog with him would be able to take a seat.

John Jocelyn has done more to promote 2A rights than Frosh, Fienstein, hussein, Pelosi, Cardin ...................

you never cease to make me smile....

swinokur said:

you never cease to make me smile....

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Trying to be less negative in my old age.

Vetted84 said:

Having received JJ's email and reading this thread, I believe some of you are too close to this to look at it with any objectivity.

JJ just didn't wake up one morning to an epiphany as to the intent of MDS members attending HPRB meetings.

It is not hard for someone to read through HPRB threads and come away with the wrong impression as to the intent of some those in attendance. Too much belittling of the process, members of the board, members of the MSP and the anti-2a folks.

Like JJ, this is just one old man's opinion.

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Concur.

Some of the knee jerk response "We were just attending open meetings", ah ok. I saw the head shaking and faces directed at the panel, and even out of order gallery blurt outs. That is not the definition of sitting quietly. For those in attendance who will protest they were in proper decorum, you really noticed none of the above? When it comes to intimidation, I don't think some really understand how subtle it can be and taken seriously. Years ago in circuit court I was at the plaintiffs table. The defense atty was examining his witness. The lies got to me, and I rolled my eyes toward the witness. The Judge saw it, stopped the testimony and pointed at me and said one more time and the case is dismissed. It's no secret that at some of those hearings the gallery knew the women were getting very apprehensive. That was not from sitting there quietly. This is not a comment excluding myself from some of the posturing that went on. It's just intellectually dishonest to paint the entire HPRB debate as innocently sitting at an open meeting, when there is thread after thread publicly castigating board members, giving demeaning monikers to attorneys etc.

There were bonafide threats made at HPRB board members. I understand MDS members I know in no way were part or condone that, but as to the author's point I think some have agreed he really does not point to a group specifically. The observation of what the author alleges happened goes back to Issac Newton, not remarkable at all.

I have no argument against how the HPRB has been pressed, massaged, intimidated or whatever you want to color it. It would still be as it was without that even with the "NRA radicals"() seated. People that fill these seats rely on Sr members for instruction and guidance. THERE WAS NONE, other than instruction to rubber stamp for MSP. The active intrusion from the 2A side helped make this board much more legitimate than it was, and of course the antis will fight that. So now the left wants to fight back what a surprise. Some concern was it will be worse than was the status quo at time for issuing permits. That was the argument. I kind of agreed it would make things worse eventually, but did not have me against being proactive. Maybe that is why the note doesn't bother me, I figured something would backlash. A legitimate concern is MSP could go DC style before they were ordered shall issue. DC was really in to "CASH". Today's MD business licenses are fairly liberal if you own a business. I got mine in 2015, and from stories I'm hearing currently, MSP already appears to be putting the screws to business applications much more pain than I was given.

eruby said:

John Jocelyn has done more to promote 2A rights than Frosh, Fienstein, hussein, Pelosi, Cardin ...................

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Exactly, the unintended consequences keep piling up

Guilty as charged! At least once in the HPRB Peanut Gallery, I bit my clenched fist like Robert Deniro, with an ominous soundtrack playing in my head.

And then I went to the back of room for one of those drizzled-chocolate cookies and I was all better.

Not directed at anybody.

I've been a shadow observer, and sometimes participant (however reluctantly), since 2012. I've seen firsthand how the old methods worked. Or more accurately worked for the state, and against us.

Our 2A posture is about saving lives... OUR LIVES. We dress it up with Constitutional and BoR references, where we draw our rights. Rights. Denied to us by the racist, democrat overlords ever since Jim Crow. Every time we have to beg for our RIGHT to defend ourselves in MD, we lose.

The current crop of advocates, agitators, and folks who I'm proud to call friends and allies have changed a lot of that. You bet there was intentional intimidation, especially at PP rallies in Annapolis... and that was the whole point. When the folks on the HPRB were stuck in the old ways, some of us were there to stare them in the eye and try to hold them accountable to US, the people they're supposed to serve. It's one thing to rubber stamp a 'safe' finding anonymously, and quite another to be confronted with a dozen or more stalwart folks who had the courage to stand up and try to wake the board members up to their true responsibilities. Sure, there were a few personal attacks against one or two board members, and that shouldn't have happened. But maybe that's just what was needed to get off the X and more forward. If those individuals had been more supportive of US, and less supportive of MSP, that never would have happened in the first place.

Under the current system, I can not qualify for a carry permit. I refuse to come out of retirement and gin up a phony business just to get one. BS. Like many here, I have multiple permits elsewhere, but until MD becomes shall issue I am unarmed. And I accept that, however grudgingly. And I cheer for every successful individual who prevails at the HPRB level.

2A folks in the past did what they thought was right at the time to support our cause, and I thank them for their efforts. Our current crop of advocates is trying a different approach that is working, although on a very small scale... one permit at a time. Having to go before an independent board to correct the deliberate and unconstitutional restrictions of the MSP is time consuming, frustrating, costly, and insulting. Yet folks have been doing it, and fairly recently have succeeded in gaining the right that is so freely granted under the BoR and in almost every other state.

Folks, we are a family with a common goal... to restore our rights and save lives. Like a family at the annual reunion, some of us bring potato salad, some drinks and chips, and some a favorite recipe from a deceased relative. We each bring our own contributions, and we need to be a bit more polite about Aunt Sally's tuna casserole. It's okay not to like it, but it's not okay to insult her intentions for trying. And it is okay to offer constructive input to help fine tune the results to a more favorable outcome. Just my .02

Even Soccer Moms work the refs at games.

JJ has apparently never been on the sidelines with the dads at Pee Wee Football.

In The Arena Activism, not “missives”.

It’s What’s For Dinner.

Vetted84 said:

Having received JJ's email and reading this thread, I believe some of you are too close to this to look at it with any objectivity.

JJ just didn't wake up one morning to an epiphany as to the intent of MDS members attending HPRB meetings.

It is not hard for someone to read through HPRB threads and come away with the wrong impression as to the intent of some those in attendance. Too much belittling of the process, members of the board, members of the MSP and the anti-2a folks.

Like JJ, this is just one old man's opinion.

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Can you tell me where these patriots who attend these meeting have done anything but attend these meeting to lend support to those going before the board and to watch how the process bears out?

If belittling means that those of us who have watched the process and acknowledges there were errors within the process and fight to demand those errors to be corrected, then I guess you're right.

If belittling means demanding the MSP follow the rules and laws set forth in the legislature and not allow them to use their interpretation of these rules and laws, then I guess you're right.

If belittling means that we will fight against those anti 2A folks for what is rightfully ours by the words written in the Constitution, then I guess you're right.

May I ask you a question? How do you expect us to preserve our rights without questioning those that are against our constitutional rights and are willing to take them away?

j_h_smith said:

Can you tell me where these patriots who attend these meeting have done anything but attend these meeting to lend support to those going before the board and to watch how the process bears out?

If belittling means that those of us who have watched the process and acknowledges there were errors within the process and fight to demand those errors to be corrected, then I guess you're right.

If belittling means demanding the MSP follow the rules and laws set forth in the legislature and not allow them to use their interpretation of these rules and laws, then I guess you're right.

If belittling means that we will fight against those anti 2A folks for what is rightfully ours by the words written in the Constitution, then I guess you're right.

May I ask you a question? How do you expect us to preserve our rights without questioning those that are against our constitutional rights and are willing to take them away?

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Some Edmund Burke Quotes:

You can never plan the future by the past.

Nobody makes a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

A nation without the means of reform is without the means of survival.

Custom reconciles us to everything.

Rabble-Rousers ...

Schipperke said:

Concur.

Some of the knee jerk response "We were just attending open meetings", ah ok.

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Rack&Roll said:

Guilty as charged! At least once in the HPRB Peanut Gallery, I bit my clenched fist like Robert Deniro, with an ominous soundtrack playing in my head.

And then I went to the back of room for one of those drizzled-chocolate cookies and I was all better.

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Rack&Roll said:

Even Soccer Moms work the refs at games.

JJ has apparently never been on the sidelines with the dads at Pee Wee Football.

In The Arena Activism, not “missives”.

It’s What’s For Dinner.

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Up until 'public participation', were the appearing applicants on double-secret probation ?
R&R speaking at the HPRB on behalf of the unwashed 2A Patriots of MD ...