what is the most usuable 19th century rifle to buy.

mattjans said:

What a great question and responses. I'm no gun expert, but my dad has a Winchester 25/20, 1892 Model (built in 1910 or so) that's great to shoot. So I'd vote lever action based on no experience with anything else

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LOLLL

Art3 said:

Excellent detective work, Agent Smith!

I'm a little disappointed that this thread is about avoiding paperwork. I was really looking forward to learning something about collecting. Might as well look for an Agentine Mauser

So let's say someone was interested in filling a few holes in their collection that were shaped kinda like a trapdoor and a Krag (maybe in both rifle and carbine configurations). If they wanted it to be a safe shooter, too, what would they look for? Obviously tight actions, and nothing bent, broken or missing...but are there any important details someone familiar with firearms but not these types specifically should look for? More importantly, what would they try to avoid? Are there any pitfalls (I'm thinking of things like Khyber Enfields or low numbered Springfields) that a casual collector needs to know about? That's kinda where I was hoping this thread would go so I could follow along and take notes

What about those Mausers from Argentina

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I got bit by a khyber Martini enfield once basically I learned that if you are going to buy one you better learn about the markings before you go to gun shows.I really thought the Martini Enfield was awesome because it seemed like the perfect solution because of my love of the movie Zulu.

Mr Oni said:

To be very clear here thank you all for the responses I don't have any nefarious evil plans in asking that question Rather if i saw a nice rifle online at 1 am I could order it and have it shipped to my door. I don't reload ammo nor do i know anyone personally who does and I like the convinience of buying it. So yes I am kind of limited in the Rifles i could get. As for going backwards in time hell yes I would love to own a Dreyse needle rifle or a chassepot? I like military stuff so yes old is the way for me to go.

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Best of luck on your paperless journey into the 19th century.

Art3 said:

Excellent detective work, Agent Smith!

I'm a little disappointed that this thread is about avoiding paperwork. I was really looking forward to learning something about collecting. Might as well look for an Agentine Mauser

So let's say someone was interested in filling a few holes in their collection that were shaped kinda like a trapdoor and a Krag (maybe in both rifle and carbine configurations). If they wanted it to be a safe shooter, too, what would they look for? Obviously tight actions, and nothing bent, broken or missing...but are there any important details someone familiar with firearms but not these types specifically should look for? More importantly, what would they try to avoid? Are there any pitfalls (I'm thinking of things like Khyber Enfields or low numbered Springfields) that a casual collector needs to know about? That's kinda where I was hoping this thread would go so I could follow along and take notes

What about those Mausers from Argentina

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Get the book "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine" by Joe Poyer and make sure the sights, handguards, stock, etc. are correct for the model.
There are a lot of fake carbines out there and all 1898 carbines should simply be assumed to be fakes. The most famous faker of carbines (and he did good work) was done by a guy who actually discreetly left his mark on all his "carbines"... OALW (Ostberg Armory and Locomotive Works).
Last but not least, contact me before purchasing and I'll inspect a carbine for authenticity myself.

Doco Overboard said:

Make sure your Krag has not had the chamber altered for blanks and your trapdoor has not been cut down or shortened. Same with the Krag, a lot have been turned into carbines.

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This is exactly the kind of tip I was looking for, and something I would never have considered. Thank you! Can you tell if a chamber has been altered just by looking at it? I would assume it is blocked somehow to not accept a live round?

Mr Oni said:

I got bit by a khyber Martini enfield once basically I learned that if you are going to buy one you better learn about the markings before you go to gun shows.I really thought the Martini Enfield was awesome because it seemed like the perfect solution because of my love of the movie Zulu.

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That sucks I learned about the khybers when I first started looking at SMLE's. Thankfully, as far as I know I've never had one in my hands. It's always in the back of my mind when I'm looking at one. I'm guessing/hoping that's not an issue for American rifles...

squaregrouper said:

Get the book "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine" by Joe Poyer and make sure the sights, handguards, stock, etc. are correct for the model.
There are a lot of fake carbines out there and all 1898 carbines should simply be assumed to be fakes. The most famous faker of carbines (and he did good work) was done by a guy who actually discreetly left his mark on all his "carbines"... OALW (Ostberg Armory and Locomotive Works).
Last but not least, contact me before purchasing and I'll inspect a carbine for authenticity myself.

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That's good to know about OALW. Would it be safe to assume that for shooting purposes rather than collector value, an OALW would at least get me into the Krag world on the cheap? I'll put the book on my Christmas list...it's something my mother would enjoy giving me.

I'm really not actively shopping (no $) right now, and would be more interested in rifle length of both types first...but you never know what you'll come across and when. It's good to be in the know, and I'll look you up if I get serious about anything. Thanks!

That sucks I learned about the khybers when I first started looking at SMLE's. Thankfully, as far as I know I've never had one in my hands. It's always in the back of my mind when I'm looking at one. I'm guessing/hoping that's not an issue for American rifles...

Colt 1911s


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyber_Pass_copy

Huge numbers of Krags were bubba'ed to make deer rifles over the years. Those cut down Krags really are a classic model of American hunting rifle in their own right. As Squaregrouper mentioned, they can be had a reasonable prices and make great shooters (and deer rifles!). They may have lost their collectibility along with their military form, but they retain their amazingly clever design. Ammo is expensive and usually only available for a brief period around deer season each year, so grab it when you can and save the cases for reloading.

It doesn't sound like what Mr. Oni is looking for, though.

Mr. Oni, if you want to be able to buy old rifles on impulse at 1:00 A.M., then you really should get your C&R (03) Federal Firearms License. Yes, there is some paperwork up front, but then you're free to bankrupt yourself in your pajamas thereafter.

Most of the pre-1899 Antiques that use readily available ammo, especially cheap ammo, are going to take some searching, because you're trying to find a narrow serial number range in many cases. When you do find a candidate, there is the question whether the seller is willing to sell it as an antique.

You can make a face-to-face purchase of any legal long gun, same as buying a lawnmower. Why limit yourself to pre-1899?

I notice your collection is sorely lacking in American rifles. You should be able to find a nice 03-A3, or 1903 Springfield, or Garand with no trouble, and they make wonderful shooters with easily available .30-06 ammo.

A LOT of old rifles shoot a mile high at anything less than 200 yards or more, because the front sights are too damn low. This is common with Mausers, but also with many other rifles. You probably noticed it with your Mosins.

'03 and '03-A3 Springfields have easily replaced front sight blades to get them dead on at 100 yards. Garands do not need replacement sights: the sights adjust beautifully at anything from 100 to 800 yards and more.

I say forget the pre-1899 quest, unless you are prepared to take on a fussy rifle that requires handloading. Fill that hole in your collection with an 03-A3 or a Garand first.

Then get a Trapdoor Springfield!

I notice your collection is sorely lacking in American rifles. You should be able to find a nice 03-A3, or 1903 Springfield, or Garand with no trouble, and they make wonderful shooters with easily available .30-06 ammo.

This is true and that is because American rifles are so exspensive now. If you notice my collection is a bit on the cheap side. The only one I have that is american military is the Mossberg 22.

A LOT of old rifles shoot a mile high at anything less than 200 yards or more, because the front sights are too damn low. This is common with Mausers, but also with many other rifles. You probably noticed it with your Mosins.

I have! Although my Mas 39 seems to be more accurate

Then get a Trapdoor Springfield![/QUOTE]
You must really like them lol. Youtube time.

Tip:

Try using the "quote" button at the bottom of the post you're quoting. Bonus points if you edit out the parts you don't need to quote.


Actually, I do not have a Trapdoor, but they are interesting, historic rifles and make great shooters. Back when I was skirmishing I knew a lot of skirmishers who had them. I remember when Trapdoors were everywhere at a couple hundred bucks. Prices have gone up, but apparently good shooters are still common at accessible prices, similar to 03 Springfield prices, I think. Expect to need a higher front sight on one, though.

If you do get a Trapdoor, it will remedy your lamentable lack of any American military rifles.

Just to simplify things, get them all.

Winchester M1892 *as a design* remains top notch for a very strong " pistol length " lever action .

Very early production M1892 * as a collectable rifle * have gotten way expensive .

The rifle that the M1892 was invented to compete against , is still a comparitive sleeper, the Marlin M1889 .

.22 Long Rifle. You can find several lever actions, single shots, and even a few pump .22 rifles made in the 19th century.

Also, .303 British, 7x57, .30-30, .45-70, and 7.62x54r are often found and ammo is super available.

This is one of those questions that is open for opinion since there are so many firearms that fit the bill.
Pick what you like. If you don't reload, stick to a cartridge that is still commonly available.
That's my OPINION

Alright...I guess I'll buy it that Mr. Oni is looking to avoid the hassle of paperwork out of laziness and not for nefarious purposes. I get it...simple is good. But, it also can make things complicated if you and the seller have different ideas about whether the item is antique (or, even worse, if ATF has different ideas about it). Going the C&R route seems like a really good idea...but I think an even better one would be to find and start a rapport with a good LGS. Yes, that means paperwork and fees, which you specifically wanted to avoid, but it also opens up sooooo many more options.

Just my 2 Cents...

Also, I like your avatar. My Granada was a '77. It didn't have the flashy paint job, but it was the same big body style with round headlights. Really miss the Ol' Girl

Threeband said:

What do you want it for? This is the most important question.

An occasional range shooter? Target competition? Do you want to shoot black powder or equivalent mild smokeless? Do you want to shoot an original, or is a modern reproduction available?

As has been pointed out, most of our guns are 19th Century designs, and many of our cartridges have been around since then also. It was also mentioned that .22 rimfire has been around since the 1850s, before the Civil War. (.22 Short anyway.)

But if you want an old-timey cartridge rifle that is readily available and uses easy-to-find ammo, then I suggest something in .45-70. A Trapdoor Springfield makes a great shooter. There are also Remington Rolling Blocks, Sharps, Ballards, Winchester Hi Wall and Low Wall... Many other single shot breechloaders were chambered in .45-70. There were also some magazine rifles made in that caliber:the Winchester 1886 lever action of course, but also the Winchester Hotchkiss and the Remington Lee bolt actions.

But if you want an Old Timey rifle with a LOT of history, easy to find, that uses readily available off-the-shelf ammunition, then you should take a long hard look at the Trapdoor Springfields.

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Trapdoor's are fun to own and not too bad on the wallet. IIRC though and I only took mine out once to shoot you can't just shoot all modern .45-70 rounds safely, maybe research the ammo you choose along with the rifle.

Mark392001 said:

Trapdoor's are fun to own and not too bad on the wallet. IIRC though and I only took mine out once to shoot you can't just shoot all modern .45-70 rounds safely, maybe research the ammo you choose along with the rifle.

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Absolutely.

My understanding is that 45-70 ammunition marked "for all firearms in good condition" is loaded light for the Trapdoors. It should have plain lead bullets.

Stuff loaded for Cowboy Action Shooting should be all right: http://usarmorment.com/black-hill-4570-405-grain-government-p-1934.html
but check with the manufacturer, and be sure the old rifle itself is safe to shoot with mild loads.

There is high-powered stuff available for modern guns which should be marked as not for antiques/Trapdoors/weak actions.

THe Lyman reloading manual publishes data for three seperate levels of .45-70, with the Trapdoor using only the lowest/weakest level.

Shooters need to be informed and understand what they are doing. Shooting old guns demands a specialized level of understanding and awareness.

I'm not sure the OP is willing to take on that responsibility.

Op just made a curious inquiry. Op has received tons of good advice here thank you.

Art3 said:

Alright...I guess I'll buy it that Mr. Oni is looking to avoid the hassle of paperwork out of laziness and not for nefarious purposes. I get it...simple is good. But, it also can make things complicated if you and the seller have different ideas about whether the item is antique (or, even worse, if ATF has different ideas about it). Going the C&R route seems like a really good idea...but I think an even better one would be to find and start a rapport with a good LGS. Yes, that means paperwork and fees, which you specifically wanted to avoid, but it also opens up sooooo many more options.

Just my 2 Cents...

Also, I like your avatar. My Granada was a '77. It didn't have the flashy paint job, but it was the same big body style with round headlights. Really miss the Ol' Girl

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Thank you my father owned a 79 and my Grandparents a 75. I had a 78 Monarch and would like to eventually get another

Practical antique. Good rifless


http://www.gunbroker.com/item/720206356

I also like getting antique rifles, mainly to avoid the paperwork. And because I am wanted in 7 states for tearing mattress tags off mattresses. They call me the Bed Tag Bandit. I belong to the Serta gang. But, Mosins are fairly cheap still, easy to service, and you can still get ammo, even at Walmart, so you don't have to reload unless you want to.

But, but, but, it's a tomato stake!!!

Just joking guys. I don't like them, but I don't like skinny blonde women
or single malt scotch either.

Threeband said:

Absolutely.

My understanding is that 45-70 ammunition marked "for all firearms in good condition" is loaded light for the Trapdoors. It should have plain lead bullets.

Stuff loaded for Cowboy Action Shooting should be all right: http://usarmorment.com/black-hill-4570-405-grain-government-p-1934.html
but check with the manufacturer, and be sure the old rifle itself is safe to shoot with mild loads.

There is high-powered stuff available for modern guns which should be marked as not for antiques/Trapdoors/weak actions.

THe Lyman reloading manual publishes data for three seperate levels of .45-70, with the Trapdoor using only the lowest/weakest level.

Shooters need to be informed and understand what they are doing. Shooting old guns demands a specialized level of understanding and awareness.

I'm not sure the OP is willing to take on that responsibility.

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Checked to see what the ammo I had for mine was- cowboy wadcutters I picked up at some show a while back. Looking at the box I have from probably 7-8 years ago when I bought the Trapdoor I think I only shot a few rounds for novelty sake. Many of the older pieces are fun to own, collect, and appreciate but aren't what you might think to shoot recreationally. I've shot everything I own, for normal plinking and target practice I'd take a modern firearm. Some of the old stuff kicks like mules- military metal buttplates against shoulder doesn't equal a fun range session after a large volume of rounds fired. Get a slip on shotgun style rubber cover for the butt, it makes it more acceptable if you do go this route for long range sessions.