ID this 1911?

trailtoy · Aug 31, 2014

Can anyone ID this frame? I know it's a long shot but WTH. I talked my dad in to buying this thing 30-35 years ago from a neighbor. It has not changed except for the Hogue grip. It has a Bomar rear sight and a taller than normal front sight. The front of the frame is stippled and it has an overtravel screw in the trigger. The frame has no markings other than the 4-digit number you see, which is also on the ejector. Frame-to-slide is not very tight but it still shoots good.

rj1974 · Aug 31, 2014

It's a Colt slide but that frame is not a Colt .

teratos · Aug 31, 2014

Looks like it could be a military National Match. The Camp Perry guns had a random receiver, then a Colt barrel, slide, bushing, and nice adjustable sights etc. I don't see proper proofs on the lower. usually they are tight guns. Can you take a pic of the other side?

trailtoy · Aug 31, 2014

Flip side. Not much to see, there is a '3' on the slide just left of the serrations. The print says: COLT'S MFG. CO. HARTFORD, CN U.S.A.

Cool to think it might be a match gun, could be loose just from years of use, and maybe abuse.

Lou45 · Aug 31, 2014

rj1974 said:
It's a Colt slide but that frame is not a Colt .

I can't tell if the frame is a Colt or not as the U.S. markings on the right side may have been removed (the pic sucks on the right side) but the font of the serial# is interesting and the frame is NOT a 1911-A1 but the older 1911.

teratos · Aug 31, 2014

Not a Camp Perry gun. They have proof marks near the mag release that indicate they are match guns and have the armorers initials.

I have a '67 Army National Match. It's built on a '44 Remington Rand receiver.

Magnumite · Aug 31, 2014

There is a proof mark, on the flat, left side rear of trigger guard. It looks like it could be the Colt verified proof stamp.

The frame is a 1911, not 1911A1 type, since there are no scallops at rear of the trigger opening. I believe some of the very early frames were serial numbered on the left side. I'll look into it.

fivepointstar · Aug 31, 2014

are there any proof marks under the grip. you got me wondering

somd_mustangs · Aug 31, 2014

Magnumite said:
... I believe some of the very early frames were serial numbered on the left side....

The early guns (1912) had the S/N on right side forward of the trigger guard (also the font's not correct for it to be an early Colt S/N). Also look for inspection marks on the top of the frame around the disconnector.

If it's a true arsenal-built National Match it will have a N-M 7xxxxx part number on the face of the bushing and on the barrel, and the gun's S/N on the barrel. I think they stamped either the S/N or another N-M marking on the slide too to keep all the parts together.

Here's a link to a complete correct one:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=419924262

Granted the config changed over the years...

Jim Sr · Aug 31, 2014

trailtoy said:
Flip side. Not much to see, there is a '3' on the slide just left of the serrations. The print says: COLT'S MFG. CO. HARTFORD, CN U.S.A.

Cool to think it might be a match gun, could be loose just from years of use, and maybe abuse.

http://www.mdshooters.com/gallery/files/2/6/8/3/1/1911-r.jpg

rj1974 · Aug 31, 2014

Lou45 said:
I can't tell if the frame is a Colt or not as the U.S. markings on the right side may have been removed (the pic sucks on the right side) but the font of the serial# is interesting and the frame is NOT a 1911-A1 but the older 1911.

According to my Clawson's book Commercial pistols from #C1-C2250 were marked on the LH side of the dust cover. All pistols made afterwards had the serial number applied in the usual location on the RH side above the trigger, where the metal was thicker and less likely to be deformed by stamping. This change occurred in October 1912. That frame serial number is well past the change and does not start with a c and is in the wrong location , they were stamped farther out on the dust cover .

BradMacc82 · Aug 31, 2014

I couldn't say, but the machining marks on the frame under the finish make me wonder.

somd_mustangs · Aug 31, 2014

rj1974, good point about the early Commercials. I had ignored those since the armorers wouldn't have use a commercial frame. and I don't think they ever used the early 1911 frame either, only the -A1 but I'm not a NM expert by any means. It definitely should have an NM stamp on the trigger guard though and NM marked barrel, slide and bushing. The link I put up a few posts ago is to a representative arsenal-done NM. Many differences from this one. Not to say the OP isn't a nice custom job though, it's just highly doubtful it's an "official" NM.

BTW: I'd LOVE to have a nice early high-polish/fire blue 1911

rj1974 · Aug 31, 2014

That roll mark on the slide is 50s era I believe . Looks like somebody wanted a look alike NM 1911 and threw a bunch of parts together . Could the frame be from south of the border , I don't know anything about the ones from down there ?

Lou45 · Aug 31, 2014

Magnumite said:
There is a proof mark, on the flat, left side rear of trigger guard. It looks like it could be the Colt verified proof stamp.

The frame is a 1911, not 1911A1 type, since there are no scallops at rear of the trigger opening. I believe some of the very early frames were serial numbered on the left side. I'll look into it.

If you can see that proof mark you described, your eyes are better than mine.

rj1974 said:
According to my Clawson's book Commercial pistols from #C1-C2250 were marked on the LH side of the dust cover. All pistols made afterwards had the serial number applied in the usual location on the RH side above the trigger, where the metal was thicker and less likely to be deformed by stamping. This change occurred in October 1912. That frame serial number is well past the change and does not start with a c and is in the wrong location , they were stamped farther out on the dust cover .

Aaahhh, let's think military frame, not commercial.

BradMacc82 said:
I couldn't say, but the machining marks on the frame under the finish make me wonder.

Are you referring to the right side of frame starting just forward of the right grip out to just short of the takedown pin??? Looks like something was there and was removed or badly worn in that area.

If I had to make a guess here, I'd say a very early Colt (or other manufacture) 1911 military frame.

rj1974 · Aug 31, 2014

Lou45 said:
Aaahhh, let's think military frame, not commercial.

If I had to make a guess here, I'd say a very early Colt (or other manufacture) 1911 military frame.

It's not a military frame ,military pistols from #1-7500 were marked on the right side on the dust cover after that it was moved back to over the trigger . No military 1911s were serial numbered on the left . Singer , Springfield and Union Switch and Signal were all on the right as well .

I would have to say the whole gun is a commercial parts gun put together to look like a NM .

trailtoy · Sep 1, 2014

Wow, lots of info here! I always assumed the frame was not a Colt part because it has no other marks and because the number looks like it is hand stamped. I will get some better pics tomorrow.

BradMacc82 · Sep 1, 2014

Lou45 said:
Are you referring to the right side of frame starting just forward of the right grip out to just short of the takedown pin??? Looks like something was there and was removed or badly worn in that area.

My eyes may be playing tricks on me, but it also looked like some very faint machining marks on the left side behind the trigger guard below the takedown lever too.

It's out of my depth of knowledge, so I can't make any guesses here.

Lou45 · Sep 1, 2014

rj1974 said:
It's not a military frame ,military pistols from #1-7500 were marked on the right side on the dust cover after that it was moved back to over the trigger . No military 1911s were serial numbered on the left . Singer , Springfield and Union Switch and Signal were all on the right as well .

I would have to say the whole gun is a commercial parts gun put together to look like a NM .

All 1911-A1 frame manufacturers (Colt, Ithaca, Rem Rand, Singer, and US&S) were numbered as you say and were 1911-A1's.

The only thing I'm taking into consideration in this thread other than the obvious which we are in agreement with (a Frankenleven gun), is the frame. The font of the serial# almost fits right into the early 1911 Colt serial# font (used up to about 1941/1942). I'm not an expert on the 1911, but my familiarity and progressive knowledge with the military 1911-A1 comes into play in the ultra late thirties throughout WWII.

If you take notice to the right side of the frame in the crappy pic thereof, you'll see something from just forward of the grip that runs up to just short of the takedown pin. It appears as that is where there was once nomenclature that was worn and/or ground down. This is the area where the serial# SHOULD be, but it's not. I'm wondering if that nomenclature and serial# was intentionally removed for what ever reason(s) and the serial# was then restamped back in the day on the left side as shown in pic.

If we had a GOOD CLEAR pic of the right side of frame from grip forward to the dust cover (or at least up to the takedown pin), you'll see what I mean and perhaps we could collectively come up with the manufacturer of the frame. BTW, I'm viewing these pics from a 42" HD TV so if you're using one of those li'l doolybobthingamajigs that one does their thumby exercises on and carries in their pocket, you may wanna' bring it up on a BIG HD screen and you'll see what I'm referring to. Let's get OP to give a GOOD CLEAR pic of right side as I described herein.

rj1974 · Sep 1, 2014

Lou45 said:
All 1911-A1 frame manufacturers (Colt, Ithaca, Rem Rand, Singer, and US&S) were numbered as you say and were 1911-A1's.

The only thing I'm taking into consideration in this thread other than the obvious which we are in agreement with (a Frankenleven gun), is the frame. The font of the serial# almost fits right into the early 1911 Colt serial# font (used up to about 1941/1942). I'm not an expert on the 1911, but my familiarity and progressive knowledge with the military 1911-A1 comes into play in the ultra late thirties throughout WWII.

If you take notice to the right side of the frame in the crappy pic thereof, you'll see something from just forward of the grip that runs up to just short of the takedown pin. It appears as that is where there was once nomenclature that was worn and/or ground down. This is the area where the serial# SHOULD be, but it's not. I'm wondering if that nomenclature and serial# was intentionally removed for what ever reason(s) and the serial# was then restamped back in the day on the left side as shown in pic.

I kind of see what you're talking about , we need better pics . Nope pocket googly thing here I'm on a 17" laptop . I cropped it and lightened it a lil bit to highlight the lighter spots and edges .

ID this 1911?

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