C&R transfers out of state
- Thread starter Zoltan
- Start date
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Not that I’ve seen. Every thread where this topic gets brought up usually ends up multiple pages of people politely arguing with each other, so I’d expect the same now lol.
CasualObserver
Who Observes the Observer
I assume you are referring to C&R handguns between C&R holders who are MD residents performed outside of MD. I have seen nothing to add clarity. Some folks say its OK, others say it is not. I decided it was easier to just move to another state.
Squaregrouper
Kragaphile
Here is my opinion on the subject...
If 2 MD residents cross the state line for the sole purpose of transferring a C&R pistol, it is an intentional way of skirting MD law. Conversely, if I had a C&R pistol for sale at a gun show in PA, VA, etc, and a random MD C&R holder wanted to buy it, that would seem (to me) to be a more legit transfer.
IANAL
Once outside Maryland their law does not apply. If you have residency in say Florida too you don't need to follow Maryland law to purchase a pistol. Within the state of Maryland not sure. I assume longguns are ok for FFL03 holder to pickup from Maryland FFL01 or another FFL03 holder? Does same apply to C&R Handguns between out of state FFL03 and Maryland FFL01 in Maryland?
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Not true at all. That's why it's illegal for a MD resident to purchase any firearm which is banned for sale in MD in another state. For example, it is against the law for a MD resident to purchase a FNFAL in WV despite the fact that it is a cash-and-carry long-gun in that state. Both the purchaser and the FFL would be culpable.
The reason that the "Two MD C&R holders transfer somewhere across the state line" is that neither individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm via interstate commerce, AND said firearm is not prohibited from being possessed/transferred in MD. The heart of the question is, does the transfer take place IN MD where the MDSP has jurisdiction over FTF transfers of handguns. In theory, going across state lines means that the transfer is now interstate commerce that falls under the Federal purview and not MDSP's jurisdiction. That said, it likely wouldn't hold up in court as both persons are residents of MD with the firearm originating in MD and therefore, would not be considered nor construed to be interstate commerce and thus, would fall back under state jurisdiction and rules/laws.
This is how I believe the C&R FFL03 was created for. IANAL either.
The dedicated meeting out of state thing has yet to be tested in court. I would NOT want to be in a MD court with a MD judge for that.
somd_mustangs
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- Jul 1, 2012
- 5,730
This, exactly. And both FFL-03 parties would be logging the transfer as to/from another MD resident. That would be hard to explain if it came down to it.
Chances of "getting caught" - probably fairly low
Consequences of getting caught - pretty severe
risk analysis - not worth it.
The MD AG memo states IMPORTED into Maryland from OUTSIDE Maryland. Passing back and forth between two MD residents is not importing into MD no matter where the transfer took place.
Attachments
Maryland has no jurisdiction over WV seller. That's why states can't criminally go after out of state high capacity magazines sellers that ship to NJ or Maryland. They can go after them in federal civil court.
If the firearm is illegal in Maryland and sold to a Maryland Resident by a dealer in another state in that state that maybe illegal under federal law. Not sure about that one, but Maryland law can not extend outside the state of Maryland. Once brought back to Maryland then Maryland law applies and go to jail.
If someone has duel residency in say Maryland and Florida they can buy a Maryland banned firearm in Florida, if legal in Florida, and kept in Florida. Again can't be brought back to Maryland.
For a Maryland legal C&R handgun bought with a federal C&R FFL 03 by a Maryland Resident in another state Maryland law does not apply in that state. This has been argued over and over in NJ forums. Edit: Which I now see above even the Maryland AG has clarified is ok.
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somd_mustangs
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- Jul 1, 2012
- 5,730
That's not at all the issue here ^^^^
we're talking about two MD residents with FFL-03's going to another state to transfer a C&R handgun and bringing it back to avoid a 77R transfer via MDSP.
At least that's what I think is the core discussion...
OP "From my research it seems out of state FTF C&R transfers between Maryland residents is a very grey area legally."
A MD FFL-03 buying a C&R rifle or handgun out of state, from an out of state FFL or unlicensed individual, and bringing it back / shipping into MD is perfectly legal as long as it isn't on the banned list (e.g. some SP-1/AR-15 are C&R now and can't bring those in).
Doing the "slip across the border" MD-to-MD transfer, not so much.
we're talking about two MD residents with FFL-03's going to another state to transfer a C&R handgun and bringing it back to avoid a 77R transfer via MDSP.
At least that's what I think is the core discussion...
OP "From my research it seems out of state FTF C&R transfers between Maryland residents is a very grey area legally."
A MD FFL-03 buying a C&R rifle or handgun out of state, from an out of state FFL or unlicensed individual, and bringing it back / shipping into MD is perfectly legal as long as it isn't on the banned list (e.g. some SP-1/AR-15 are C&R now and can't bring those in).
Doing the "slip across the border" MD-to-MD transfer, not so much.
Two residents of Maryland going to WV to make transaction that would otherwise require a waiting period in Maryland or additional paperwork would be illegal since there was a conspiracy to break Maryland law by Maryland Residents. Once the firearm was brought back they could be arrested. Maryland law however normally does not apply outside of Maryland even on Maryland Residents in regards to the transaction. People v Anderson.
I am not sure how Federal Law applies in regards to a Federally licensed dealer. Would have to look into that.
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I am not sure how Federal Law applies in regards to a Federally licensed dealer. Would have to look into that.
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I think you contradict yourself. Interstate commerce is correct. A Marylander going to PA qualifies, as staying in Md would make the transaction intrastate.
"The Commerce Clause is a grant of power to Congress, not an express limitation on the power of the states to regulate the economy. ... Under this interpretation, states are divested of all power to regulate interstate commerce." --Foundations of Law, The Commerce Clause
Maryland cannot regulate C&R transfers outside of Maryland as an FFL03 is a Federal license and the transaction is interstate, not intrastate.
But, with both parties being residents of Maryland, it doesn't matter where the business is conducted, they are both Maryland residents, and thus, subject to laws regarding intrastate commerce. For example, let's say there's a 500% tax on transfers of crab products to sporting goods manufacturers. UnderArmour Inc. wants to make crab and OldBay scented jerseys for UMD's football team and they contract with Phillips Foods Inc. and McCormick & Company to supply the crab and old bay needed to manufacture the jerseys.
They decide to sign the agreement and pay cash to the suppliers but want to avoid paying a 500% tax, so they decide to sign the deal and exchange money across the line in Martinsburg, WV. Do you think that actually works that way? Do you think MD say "Oh, they were in WV when they signed and paid, so they don't owe us those taxes." No, that's not how it works, they're all incorporated in MD, they "reside" in MD, they pay MD taxes, if companies had drivers licenses, these would have MD driver's licenses. It's the same for people.
CruncherBlock
Active Member
- Mar 29, 2016
- 596
How exactly do you get 'caught' doing this? Would this be questioned in a bound book audit?
Given that field agents are supposed to be up-to-snuff with local laws, yes.
It's the same as asking how you get 'caught' selling a regulated firearm to another individual without going through the proper channels in MD. It's against the law, so as a law-abiding gun owner, you don't do it.
CruncherBlock
Active Member
- Mar 29, 2016
- 596
Thanks. So, then this would only come up in a bound book audit and if the agent checked the state of residence of both parties of every transaction and also if the agent cared to actually press the local legality, right? I mean we're talking about government workers which means if they turn a blind eye it's less paperwork.
Does the FFL License number itself indicate the state of the holder because that would mean they would have to actually look it up. People sell guns in the streets of Baltimore everyday without interacting with MSP. I am not condoning illegal activity. I am just trying to see if this is an actual issue versus a perceived problem.
somd_mustangs
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- Jul 1, 2012
- 5,730
Yeah, I wouldn't bet the farm that all (or any) government agents are too lazy and/or careless to catch it or pursue it.
If you have 1000 entries in the book vs. 10 then the odds will be more in your favor but still foolish to count on it sneaking by.
Yes, it does. The code for MD is 8-52-xxx-03-xx-xxxxx... it wouldn't be hard at all to recognize an acquisition from a MD FFL-03, then note that it's a handgun.
Whether you get away with it or not, bottom line is it's not legal to run across the border to do a -03 to -03, MD resident-to-MD resident transfer of a C&R handgun.
tallen702 and others have provided several thorough responses which can be summed up as:
If a MD 03 was in PA at a gunshow trying to sell a C&R pistol and another MD 03 just happened to run into him and wanted o buy, would that be illegal?
GuitarmanNick
Ultimate Member
It would only be legal if they did the transfer through MSP once they return to Maryland.
Transferring the pistol anywhere between two Maryland resident C&R license holders is illegal, otherwise!
Chance meeting or planned, does not matter.
In the words of China Joe,... "Come on man, it ain't rocket surgery."
All of this.
To add on how else to get caught, the person you sell the gun to does something illegal and they work back through their guns and find it came from you. And surprise surprise MSP has no record of a 77r for the transfer. Or the gun gets stolen from them. Or they transfer it to someone else who does something stupid.
There are many ways you could end up with a prohibiting offense. Even if the judge decided to let you off easy and not throw you in prison.
Just like many victimless crimes odds are pretty high you’d never get caught. That’s isn’t a great recommendation to commit them. Work to get such crap laws overturned.
