Shooting the RMR

I (finally) put my first rounds down-range with the RMR on the Glock 17 MOS. I shot about 250 rounds. It took more rounds to zero than it should have because I forgot my reading glasses and initially turned the adjustments the wrong direction and became frustrated with my perceived poor shooting. Oops. I was having an off day to begin with so my groups were not as tight as they should have been for setting zero.

Eventually I got it more-or-less zeroed in. A few observations:

The good - I was much more aware of where I was breaking the shot with the RMR than I am with irons. The dot leaves a very distinct imprint on my brain when the gun goes bang. However, that didn't always equate to having the dot where it should be - see below.

The neutral - It's not a magic bullet. The same factors that made me a mediocre shooter before the RMR, are still at play - breaking shots before having an adequate site picture (because I am rushing myself) and sometimes having poor trigger control.

The bad - Once or twice while shooting Mozambique drills, I either didn't start a string of fire or stopped mid-string because the dot didn't present and I was searching for it. I assume this will improve over time with practice, but we'll see. Shooting a pistol with both eyes open is taking some getting used to - a couple of times I saw multiple targets or multiple dots. From what I have read this not uncommon initially and eventually you get used to it, but today it was a bit unsettling because only one of them was properly lined up on the target. I found myself closing my left eye a few times. I suspect the issue is I am unconsciously focusing on the sight rather than the target. I think wearing shooting glasses also exacerbated the issue, because it didn't seem to happen while dry-firing at home.

So far, I am neither faster nor more accurate with the RMR - probably a little slower and accuracy is about the same, maybe a tad worse. I am hoping both will improve with round count.

I welcome suggestions from anyone with more rounds down range using a micro red dot on their pistol.

Subscribed. Hoping to get Intel on rmr.

You don't "aim" the dot, otherwise, it's almost no different than trying to use a laser. Once you see the dot on center mass, crack a round off. They are for quick acquisitions and quick shots. It's basically point shooting with a quick dot reference.

You got the wrong thing if you are looking for dime sized groups.

I mastered two eye shooting before I tried using a reflex sight. I am far from an expert in shooting with it yet, but when I do Mozambique drills, I only use the sight for the first body shot. I use natural point of aim for the second shot and move up 18" for the head shot. To me, it is more instinctive than precise. My main focus is to not vary windage. If I'm shooting down the middle and not elevating too much, I'm still putting three rounds in vital areas.
I use my Canik TP9SFX with a Vortex Viper and Glock 23 with a Dead Ringer Snake Eyes for defensive shooting and my Tauri (PT92, PT-1911, and PT-809) for precision shooting.

Blaster229 said:

You don't "aim" the dot, otherwise, it's almost no different than trying to use a laser. Once you see the dot on center mass, crack a round off. They are for quick acquisitions and quick shots. It's basically point shooting with a quick dot reference.

You got the wrong thing if you are looking for dime sized groups.

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***** Pretty much this. There are a few guys that use them at our defense pistol shoots every month (kinda like IDPA, but held at our range at IWLA Damascus), but they tend to be older guys with not so great vision. They are great for target acquisition but not really designed for ultra precision shooting, though better shooters using them have been able to hit our hanging tennis ball and golf ball challenge at 25 yards. Most everyone uses iron sights at our range at the bowling pin shoots (a different event) and seem to do ok out to 25 yards. If you're a good shooter with iron sights, I don't see you getting more accurate using an RMR, but you might be able to be more accurate faster for certain scenarios.

I'm lucky to still have good vision and still do ok with iron sights on my Glock 34 out to 25yards. I've used the RMR and can see how it simplifies some aspects of aiming a pistol. It's not going to make a mediocre shooter with limited skills into a sharpshooter. If you wanna get better: practice more, and get some coaching to spot issues you may be unaware of.

What improved my shooting the most was getting some instruction from really good shooters, and from watching old episodes of Gunsmoke, and the Lone Ranger.

i've refrained from getting in to carry optics because of that damned dot. just sits up too high - hard to find and easy to lose. i do shoot a dot in open but turned the cmore on its side to get the dot pretty low and can pick it up pretty quick.

and fyi, with a small dot and/or having it turned down, you can shoot some pretty small groups if you take your time and manage the trigger.

I put a Vortex Venom on my P80 and didn't like it at all. For me the P80 is a natural pointer and the red dot spoiled that. After taking it off and putting the Ameriglo sites back on I couldn't be happier. I may try the optic as a backup on one of my ARs or just sell it. In any case it's not going back on any of my pistols

This is great information. Keep it coming. To me (and my capabilities), I'm hearing I need to practice more and look for more training. I figured that was the case. Thanks, you all just saved me some coin.

OP, are you running suppressor height sights in conjunction with your RMR?

I experimented quite a lot with pistol red dots when I had my Beretta Neos, and I came to the conclusion that, without irons to reference with, finding the dot was just too slow. Gabe Suarez is probably right that you pretty much need those irons in order to run a red dot fast (which is a bit of an irony, but whatever works).

erwos said:

OP, are you running suppressor height sights in conjunction with your RMR?

I experimented quite a lot with pistol red dots when I had my Beretta Neos, and I came to the conclusion that, without irons to reference with, finding the dot was just too slow. Gabe Suarez is probably right that you pretty much need those irons in order to run a red dot fast (which is a bit of an irony, but whatever works).

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Good question. The answer is no, I have not added them - waiting until I either make peace with the RDS or don't.

You raise an interesting point and Suarez and the guy from Sage Dynamics seem to have opposing views that. The theory he (SD) gives is that the strength of the RDS is the single focal plane and if you train yourself to reference the irons first, you are defeating the primary benefit of the RDS and will ultimately be slower in the long run. He specifically mounts his rear iron ahead of the RDS for this reason.

I don't have enough experience at this point to say who I think is right.

Not quite an RMR, but was really impressed with the Steyr pyramid sights I tried the other day. Was smacking steel at 50yrds when I picked it up for the first time. A little quicker acquisition too imo. Trigger had no reset though, which is why I won’t be buying one. My eyes aren’t any good for an RMR (astigmatism).

Hope you can increase your speed and accuracy with it OP! Always hear great things about the use of an RMR, especially in a defensive/competitive situation.

slybarman said:

Good question. The answer is no, I have not added them - waiting until I either make peace with the RDS or don't.

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I guess my point is, they may help you make that peace.

You raise an interesting point and Suarez and the guy from Sage Dynamics seem to have opposing views that. The theory he (SD) gives is that the strength of the RDS is the single focal plane and if you train yourself to reference the irons first, you are defeating the primary benefit of the RDS and will ultimately be slower in the long run. He specifically mounts his rear iron ahead of the RDS for this reason.

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I guess all I can say is that I tried for a long time with the Beretta and could never be quite as fast.

I find the red dot with suppressor height sights to be faster when shooting things where I am moving target to target. It allows me to just focus my vision on the target and move the dot without having to align sights. I find it pretty quick to find from the draw since it is cowitnessed to the suppressor height sights. I don't find myself searching for the dot. I did have one time where it was very sunny out and the was a glare that seemed like the dot and I missed horribly at an AGC bowling pin shoot over the summer. It is definitely not a magic bullet and doesn't make you a better shooter. As other have said there is no substitute for good fundamentals.

erwos said:

OP, are you running suppressor height sights in conjunction with your RMR?

I experimented quite a lot with pistol red dots when I had my Beretta Neos, and I came to the conclusion that, without irons to reference with, finding the dot was just too slow. Gabe Suarez is probably right that you pretty much need those irons in order to run a red dot fast (which is a bit of an irony, but whatever works).

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Emphatically agree.

I keep hear guys talking about "finding the DOT". If you practice pressing the pistol out towards the target in a consistent manner the dot is always going to be there. If you are pointing at your target and searching for the dot in the window the RMR is never going to be faster than the iron sights.

Blaster229 said:

You don't "aim" the dot, otherwise, it's almost no different than trying to use a laser. Once you see the dot on center mass, crack a round off. They are for quick acquisitions and quick shots. It's basically point shooting with a quick dot reference.

You got the wrong thing if you are looking for dime sized groups.

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The red dot is advantageous because you don't have to line up the front sight with the rear sight and is faster for that reason. Just put the dot on the target and press the trigger.

If your trigger press is jerky, you will miss regardless if you have a dot or use irons.

The dot is particularly advantageous because it negates the need for a long sight radius.

If you have problems finding the red dot with your draw, then you need to practice the draw. The value of having iron sights is that if your red dot is cowitnessed, then the dot appears with your normal iron sighted draw stroke (i.e. when you locate the front sight, the red dot will be right there).

Shooting at farther targets is much easier with a red dot if you have lousy vision.

I prefer the larger Deltapoint window but find the smaller profile of the RMR to be more practical.

Wfilardo said:

I keep hear guys talking about "finding the DOT". If you practice pressing the pistol out towards the target in a consistent manner the dot is always going to be there. If you are pointing at your target and searching for the dot in the window the RMR is never going to be faster than the iron sights.

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Yes, though it turns out we humans don't do everything perfect every single time. If we did, we would all be Jerry Miculek, but we're not. The same goes for recoil control, which is why it is possible to lose sight alignment during a string of fire. If everything goes right, that won't happen, but sometimes sh*t happens.

slybarman said:

Yes, though it turns out we humans don't do everything perfect every single time. If we did, we would all be Jerry Miculek, but we're not. The same goes for recoil control, which is why it is possible to lose sight alignment during a string of fire. If everything goes right, that won't happen, but sometimes sh*t happens.

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Jerry is truly a gifted shooting athlete, but a lot of his success must be due to his rigorous practice regimen. To be his age and have his speed and accuracy takes a lot of work. He is to be admired for that.

i think, at least for me, the problem finding the dot is going back and forth between normal (low, not suppressor height) iron sights and then the taller dot, even with suppressor sights. i'm confident, at least with time/practice, if i stuck with a carry optics gun (slide mounted red dot), i'd get better at it. but i really don't want to 'focus' just on carry optics, at least now.

Maybe someone can shed some light on an "issue" I have. I have an RMR on my M&P CORE. The dot is not lining up with the irons(elevated irons), the dot is actually up and to the left so you almost cannot see it when looking straight through the RMR. The weird part is the irons are shooting true, AND the dot is shooting true but they are not lined up with each other. I don't know if maybe I have the RMR tightened up too much or something like that.