Montoya Permit Journey Part Deux, Trois or Quatre...who the hell knows

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  • montoya32

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jun 16, 2010
    11,311
    Harford Co
    Had my OAH hearing today in Hunt Valley. I have retrained Ed Hershon for this portion of my journey. My HPRB hearing was in Dec of 18 and the HPRB had a delay in sending out the decision letter, so here we are. I received my notice of appeal at the very end of May with a June 3rd OAH hearing. not a whole lot of time to formulate a plan and to decide who to work with.

    I reached out to Ed and he was glad to take on the challenge. Ed was very impressive with his knowledge of the entire process, the law and what MSP is SUPPOSED to be doing.

    The OAH hearing was OVER 2 1/2 hours long. MSP had no attorney, just Lazuwick(sp) and Taylor there to represent them. The OAH room has space enough for two members of each party and maybe 3 or 4 seats additional. The room gets warm quickly!!!

    The judge STILL does not recognize the fact that the burden for this appeal rests on the MSP. That is a hurdle we MUST overcome. It is possible that he will realize this while completing his decision, but that is yet to be seen.

    Ed did an incredible job calling MSP out on EVERY issue. The fact that they use generic, blanket restrictions for ALL business permits. The fact that they are not required to apply restrictions at all, but interpret the actual law to their own liking. They also cannot and will not define what "while conducting business" is , because they can't. They did admit that they do not know the intricacies of each permit holder's business, so how could an officer on the side of the road know?

    MSP does not what to discuss hypothetical situations, like what might happen if a permit holder encounters law enforcement or what does a permit holder do when called away from business to a personal issue or vice-versa, but they do assume that a permit holder is a danger to the public without restrictions. Their argument is that the legislature believes the fewer guns on the street, the safer the public is. We all see how that is working out.

    There are some more details that I will not divulge here due to the lack of privacy of this forum, but I do believe it was a productive hearing and am hoping for the best outcome.

    Again, I cannot endorse and recommend Ed Hershon enough.
     

    chesapeakeIRON

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 5, 2012
    1,488
    Harford County
    It’s a frustrating process to say the least, but it looks like you may have made some headway .... hopefully your next update is the success update


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    Two and a half hours! Was that because the valiant Ed had that much ground to cover, or because the MSP did, or because the judge did? Yikes.

    Thanks very much for the update, as the clock is ticking away towards the February renewal of my currently unrestricted permit. Ugh. It's like knowing I have to go the MVA.
     

    Stoveman

    TV Personality
    Patriot Picket
    Sep 2, 2013
    27,990
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    An Administrative Law Judge who is trained by the MSP doesn't recognize Maryland law in that the MSP has the burden on restrictions appeals? The Hell you say.

    How much time and taxpayer dollars were wasted by Troopers Lazuick and Taylor today? And for what, arguing about restrictions on a permit for a citizen has already crossed the G&S threshold?

    I'm sure these troopers went home at the end of the day to their girlfriends, wives or whatever and really felt good about their service to the State of Maryland. Did they arrest one of the FBI's ten most wanted? No. Did they capture a violent felon? No. Did they at least rescue that kitty in the tree? Hell no, something vastly more important to the safety of Marylanders across the state.

    Congrats, guys, you didn't do a damn thing about the war zone that is Baltimore City but by God you stood tall against a law abiding citizen who has already met the G&S burden from having an unrestricted permit thereby keeping the mean streets of Hazzard just a little bit safer through your courageous actions. I'm sure there will be a little something extra in your checks this week for having to pull this tough duty.
     

    welder516

    Deplorable Welder
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    27,309
    Underground Bunker
    I wish you lots of luck , the OAH makes you feel you will get a fair shot and treated fairly but they already know what they are going to do . It is a court that is a rubber stamp to the MSP , I wish I could offer a different opinion .

    The one thing I would say is if I had the disposable income I would fight it to the highest court , I just don't have that kind of money .
     

    motorcoachdoug

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    I wish you lots of luck , the OAH makes you feel you will get a fair shot and treated fairly but they already know what they are going to do . It is a court that is a rubber stamp to the MSP , I wish I could offer a different opinion .

    The one thing I would say is if I had the disposable income I would fight it to the highest court , I just don't have that kind of money .

    And of course that is one major reason MSP does what it does because they know you do not have the $$$ to take it to the highest court so they delay and delay all according to their game plan while Hogan sits on the side lines and does nothing..
     

    welder516

    Deplorable Welder
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    27,309
    Underground Bunker
    And of course that is one major reason MSP does what it does because they know you do not have the $$$ to take it to the highest court so they delay and delay all according to their game plan while Hogan sits on the side lines and does nothing..

    The courts are not ruling from a "Neutral Place" the foxes trained the hens :sad20:
     

    Hattie

    Active Member
    Sep 18, 2012
    178
    Query whether the trained attorney judges of the OAH receiving "training" from MSP on matters that properly would be adduced at the hearing and/or be the subject of independent research by the administrative judge might constitute improper ex parte contact and/or decision based on matters outside the record, requiring recusal and/or reversal.
     

    welder516

    Deplorable Welder
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    27,309
    Underground Bunker
    Everything the OAH does is at the teaching and direction of the MSP , it is not the way our government is suppose to work . We see it on the federal level with all the liberal judges and we see it local with Frosh and the interference they run . It really has been going on for years but now they do it our in the open .
     

    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    From everything I've seen OAH's are generally favorable to .Gov in however it is presented. Perhaps it has something to do with the appointment process or something?

    Not having followed this new OAH stuff does this allow an appeal to Circuit Court upon their ill finding?
     

    ironpony

    Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    7,192
    Davidsonville
    This does not sound fair. Knowing this how is one to trust the MSP for anything?


    Good luck Tim, I'll check back in 91 days
     

    welder516

    Deplorable Welder
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    27,309
    Underground Bunker
    From everything I've seen OAH's are generally favorable to .Gov in however it is presented. Perhaps it has something to do with the appointment process or something?

    Not having followed this new OAH stuff does this allow an appeal to Circuit Court upon their ill finding?

    Yes i could have appealed to the higher court , if no money or cost was involved in that process i would have in a NY second .
    But the main issue is they have more money then us , they have budgets and our tax money to fight the same people paying the tax dollars .

    It will take a high power attorney or judge to make a change , or maybe a continued effort of chiseling of the system before anything will happen IMHO

    I also believe a CC hearing would cost approx. 5 to 10 K to be heard . Keep in mind that is the cost every time you re-new your permit (3 yrs)
     

    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    Yes, but very few people have the time and resources to go that next step up the food chain.

    Well I guess the good news is in some of the more conservative places in the State a Circuit Court Judge is probably more likely to have a Pro-2A stance. I can not see the State appealing any of these cases to an appeals court for they certainly don't want to risk a case with standing.

    It will take years but this might actually work against the Dems long term. It only takes one reported decision from an appeals court to turn their system sideways.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    It will take years but this might actually work against the Dems long term. It only takes one reported decision from an appeals court to turn their system sideways.

    I’m sure the good people at MSI have long discussed the prospects of finding and backing some ideal case like this into a court that would set actual precedent. Big gamble!
     

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