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  • smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    I will defer as I have not done any testing myself, but I have seen some presentations indicating that #4 Buckshot still preforms well in defense situations while going through less walls than 00 buck or .223. I do not know what the op's home situation is in that regards, there could be a couple miles of forest or an apartment with several children next door. Have you or anyone else with more shotgun experience than I have really dug into the effectiveness of #4? Thanks.

    https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/amp/

    Here's a good source of info. Keep in mind that skin roughly equates to 4" of gel, and that projectiles may be going through clothes, barriers, or something like the threat's own arm in order to reach vitals. #4 is still a very solid choice, but I personally favor slightly more penetration.
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,662
    Not Far Enough from the City
    I'm going to go against the grain here and advise you to buy a shotgun with a standard 28" barrel. It sounds like you're not a gun guy. Guns aren't dangerous but having a gun in the house where no one has experience operating it can be very dangerous. If you buy a "home defense" shotgun with an 18" barrel you won't be able to shoot it at a trap and skeet range. Even though shooting clay pigeons may seem intimidating, an outdoor range is a very good place to become accustomed to you gun. You'll want to be able to load it, operate the safety, and shoot it without hesitation. This happens best by shooting it regularly. Taking a shotgun to an indoor range is a dark, lonely, boring event. Taking it to shoot clay pigeons is invigorating.
    Some here will say that a 28" barrel is clumsy inside the home in a self defense situation. I say that it is much less clumsy than holding a gun that you aren't familiar with.
    A side benefit is that at your passing, someone will inherit a firearm that is useful for hunting, shooting clay pigeons, and home defense.

    People here hate Dick's Sporting Goods but they'll be selling the Remington 870 on Black Friday for about $280.

    There’s an excellent message here.

    We can (and oh yes by God we will :)) debate the specifics of firearm type, brand and barrel length till the cows come home. All of these considerations pale in comparison to one truly central thought and theme.

    Whatever you buy....SHOOT the damn thing! Get familiar with your purchase until it’s second nature!

    If for whatever reason you’re not going to regularly shoot what you’ve bought, or what you’re thinking of buying, you’ve made or will be making the wrong choice.
     

    dreadpirate

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 7, 2010
    5,521
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    For a HD the shotgun; I agree with a previous poster who says get a 20 gauge; less noise, easier to control.

    Here's an unpopular option, but an option none the less; a 22lr revolver with a 5.5 or 6" barrel, like a Ruger GP100. Why?

    1. It's quiet, your ears won't be ringing when you call 911
    2. Easy to shoot and easy to place shots where you want them, even with double action.
    3. Very reliable
    4. The longer barrel will allow the 22's to gain enough velocity to expand effectively.
    5. You have 10 shots.
     

    ToolAA

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 17, 2016
    10,499
    God's Country
    Mossberg and Remington are great. I'd avoid the cheap Turkish guns that look pretty and run like shit.



    I brought one of those Turkish Semi-Auto’s from Walmart at clearance for $150. It did run like shit. However I took the whole thing apart, removed a ton of crappy machining burrs and shavings then polished up some of the bearing surfaces. Works find now. However It’s not going to hold up to serious outdoor engagements.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,877
    For the purposes of this thread , I will take the OP's inquiry at face value that he has taken his overall situation into consideration , and determined that a shotgun is viable for it's intended role , and discuss ammo within that context .

    It's cliche, yet very true, that " birdshot is for the birds " . If you're going to use a shotgun , use buckshot or slugs .

    #1 Buckshot is indeed theoretically the best balance of pattern density and penetration . BUT not nearly as available on the shelf , whereas Federal Tactical 00B is semi-commonly found . For me , the improved performance of proper * tactical buckshot * outweighs old school #1 B .

    Ah , #4 Buck . A conditional nod . Pattern density is great , but the limited penetration gives it several astrix . In regions where bad guys wear long johns, cpl flannel shirts, and Carrhart or surplus field jackets much of the year, there have been real world instances of the pellets being stopped or severely slowed by such winter layers . And more distance limited . So if a " home defense " parameters includes engaging down a rural driveway , or large lawn , other choices are better . If "home" is actually limited to accross a room , in a climate no colder than central Md , it's probably viable .

    Slugs are certainly effective , and a number of people with personal first hand experience swear by all slugs, all the time . Old school Foster style are prefered . Reportedly the usual deform and break up enough on solid torso hits to usually not exit . ( But if you miss, they zip thru drywall .)

    ****************

    20ga is definitely viable option , within the inherent distance limitations of #3 Buck . But not necessarily reducing recoil per se . The catch is that 20ga gun are frequently lighter than 12ga guns . So then 20g 2.75in high brass buckshot ends up being about same recoil as 12ga low recoil loads .

    But for X % of smaller shooters, advantage still for 20ga , as the lighter weight of the gun is easier handling and aiming .
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    WRT birdshot, we did a sporting clays class with an instructor who also taught tactical shotgun at FLETC.

    Over lunch, someone asked about birdshot for tactical/HD use.

    He started in. He said he taught his tactical classes to always carry 2 rounds of Winchester Super Handicap shells in 7 1/2 shot. At the time, they were the only super birdshot round commonly available.

    He said, if the bad guy is hiding behind cover, like concrete wall, and peers around, a load of 00 could easily miss, due to the small exposed area. So a Super Handicap 7 1/2, would make the hit and take out the eye peering around. The second one was once you took out one eye, and he sticks his head further out to see, you take out the other eye.

    He then stated, "When they are standing there with their optical jelly running down their face, it take the fight right out of them."

    He then looked about, got a surprised look, and said, "Oops, wrong audience."
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    WRT birdshot, we did a sporting clays class with an instructor who also taught tactical shotgun at FLETC.

    Over lunch, someone asked about birdshot for tactical/HD use.

    He started in. He said he taught his tactical classes to always carry 2 rounds of Winchester Super Handicap shells in 7 1/2 shot. At the time, they were the only super birdshot round commonly available.

    He said, if the bad guy is hiding behind cover, like concrete wall, and peers around, a load of 00 could easily miss, due to the small exposed area. So a Super Handicap 7 1/2, would make the hit and take out the eye peering around. The second one was once you took out one eye, and he sticks his head further out to see, you take out the other eye.

    He then stated, "When they are standing there with their optical jelly running down their face, it take the fight right out of them."

    He then looked about, got a surprised look, and said, "Oops, wrong audience."
    please tell me it was intended as a joke
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    WRT birdshot, we did a sporting clays class with an instructor who also taught tactical shotgun at FLETC.

    Over lunch, someone asked about birdshot for tactical/HD use.

    He started in. He said he taught his tactical classes to always carry 2 rounds of Winchester Super Handicap shells in 7 1/2 shot. At the time, they were the only super birdshot round commonly available.

    He said, if the bad guy is hiding behind cover, like concrete wall, and peers around, a load of 00 could easily miss, due to the small exposed area. So a Super Handicap 7 1/2, would make the hit and take out the eye peering around. The second one was once you took out one eye, and he sticks his head further out to see, you take out the other eye.

    He then stated, "When they are standing there with their optical jelly running down their face, it take the fight right out of them."

    He then looked about, got a surprised look, and said, "Oops, wrong audience."

    Why stop at bird shot? he should have pushed his students to fix a bayonet, and charge. Impaling your enemies takes the fight right out of them mo betta.
     

    Sirex

    Powered by natural gas
    Oct 30, 2010
    10,380
    Westminster, MD
    Get the one where "you can go pump, or auto."

    I have a thing for the Benelli M3 for some reason, but found a Turkish knock off, the Tristar Tec12 for a crazy low price so I picked it up. So far it has shot everything I have tried in semi auto mode. Birdshot, buck, slugs. The action is very slick. It is kinda weird as when empty the pump action locks up, telling you to reload. You can hit the button to release it though. I still want a M3, but I am happy, and confident in the T12. The only gripe I have is the length of pull is a tad too long for optimal comfort for me, and I don't see any aftermarket stocks for it. Also not sure what tube extensions would fit. It is my beater, fun gun.
     

    Ironnewt

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 24, 2012
    1,416
    Harford County
    Rarely is hearing discussed with home defense. I was at a covered outdoor range and forgot to put on my muffs and I thought the handgun blew up. Setting off a shotgun in your home will make your ears ring and of course damage your hearing. Just FYI.

    In a high stress home security situation, you are not going to hear a thing. You will also get tunnel vision and think that you fired once when you actually emptied the mag tube.
     

    Bullfrog

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 8, 2009
    15,152
    Carroll County
    In a high stress home security situation, you are not going to hear a thing. You will also get tunnel vision and think that you fired once when you actually emptied the mag tube.

    Adrenalin does not negate the laws of physics.

    You may not notice the sound or feel any discomfort, but it will still have the same negative effects on your hearing, both short and long term. You may be temporarily unable to hear your significant other speaking to you, or hear a second intruder moving around in the next room.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    Oh no you didn't!

    Cue the "You're crazy not to be locked and loaded when the bad guy comes to the door" crowd.

    Nah, you can always just eject that loaded shell to give the bad guy(s) a chance to flee before hitting them with bird shot, hitting them with some more bird shot, hitting them with buckshot if they still have not changed their mind after the racking of the gun and two rounds of bird shot, and if they are really, really persistent, hitting them with more buckshot and then some slugs.

    I cannot believe I read this far in this thread.

    OP - buy a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500. That is what the majority here recommends and what I am recommending.

    As far as the rest goes, spend some money on practice, but if you are really, really, really worried about a home invasion, save up a bunch of money and move to a better area.

    Me, I keep a loaded Benelli M4 SBS in the safe with another 5 rounds of buckshot sitting right next to it. Electronic hearing protection is in the basement in my hunting pack. No worries, I can make it down there as I spray the bird shot all over the place. Oh heck, going to have to swap out some of those buckshot rounds in the Benelli for some bird shot. Don't want the home invaders crying foul that I did not give them fair warning. Will have to remember to rack the bolt a couple times too. Lucky for me, after ejecting the first live round, I can rack that bolt over and over and over again without anything feeding from the mag tube.

    OP - buy a 870 or 500. Learn how it works and learn how to shoot it. If needed, buy a safe for the gun or keep it locked up somehow.
     

    LRoberts

    Retired Master General El
    Oct 22, 2017
    241
    SM County
    Remington 870 or Mossberg 500. Neither are expensive and are time proven. Don’t go cheap on protecting your family. I’m not saying to buy a Benelli, but the Remington and Mossberg can be had for cheap and will run forever.

    Don’t get a pistol grip!!

    I agree... I had an 870 Remington Pump before it was stolen, and I now have a Mossberg 500 Pump. You can saw the barrel off to a little over 18", or you can buy a Slug Barrel for it.

    If he wants a pistol grip, he can get one with a folding stock, which would make it easier to transport.
    .;)
     

    Bill P

    Member
    Apr 6, 2017
    8
    Ed... This thread got a little old, but I've shot Rem 870 in 12ga and 20ga and Mossberg 500 in 12ga.

    Honestly... between the 870 or the 500... go pick them both up and see which one feels better. Both get the job done. Both cycle the same, both sound the same, both do the same thing. The Mossberg has an easier safety if you're shooting lefthanded. And... that's about the only practical difference. I like the location of the safety on the 870 better. Personal preference.

    As far as 20ga vs 12 ga goes: I bought the 20 ga for the house. It's plenty of gun. Shoot a deer with a slug from a 20ga and you'll kill it. I keep 7 1/2 shot in mine, and quite frankly at any range I'm going to shoot some home invading crackhead from it's going to wreck them. Will it kill them instantly? Probably not. Will it kill them? Yeah, they're lethal. It the distances inside my house, those steel shot are going to hit a fist sized area. And they are going to do very bad things. Even under stress, it's easy to ready the gun for a second shot without taking the barrel off the target. And if push comes to shove it's a substantial club. Poke someone in the ribs with a steel barrel and you'll break 'em.

    I shoot it every now and them, just to keep in practice. Wife has shot it. Kid has shot it. You live in this house... you need to know what to do with it. Three pumpkins needed to die in the backyard yesterday, for example... My other son was on leave and here, so me and my boys blew pumpkin guts all over the place. I've also taken it to the range, but you need to use slugs... and slugs in a youth model 20 ga 870 with a stock stock are going to leave a mark. Literally. As in a decent black and blue. Suck it up, it's a cost of learning to use it. Or spend a little and get a better stock. I don't bring it often enough to care about a little bruising. The 12 ga ones had a bit more mass and the recoil was less, despite the larger diameter barrel. Physics is physics.

    If you want to try it out some time, let me know. I'll meet you at wherever with it and you can shoot slugs until your shoulders bleed... or the right range and you can shoot shot instead and enjoy it a bit more.
     

    jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,112
    Northern Virginia
    So the OP, who is also an industry partner, hasn't replied. What happened? Did he get the shotgun?

    BTW, there are lots of low recoil slugs and buckshot shells available. They work fine in my Mossberg 590. Which is rocking a Magpul stock, which let me shorten the length of pull so it really fits me.
     

    JRisBundyboyz

    Active Member
    Nov 23, 2007
    142
    Bel Air
    How many rounds should you fire for home denfense. When I carried it was minimal 200 of your carry ammo. My home mossberg fir HD is several years old but never fired.
     

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