SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

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    Patrick

    MSI Executive Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    7,725
    Calvert County
    yellowsled said:
    How long can this back and forth of motions go on for? When can/will this actually go to trial?
    These motions to dismiss are effectively a "trial" on procedural issues: do the plaintiff's have standing; do the plaintiff's have a claim that can be remedied, etc.

    They can go on as long as the court allows them. These current motions are all basically about standing and some other related jurisdiction/process issues. At some point the court rules one way or the other on each argument. This round of motions should be dealt with soon, as MD has all but exhausted their arguments here.

    For their next step, the state will make another motion to dismiss, again arguing that the plaintiffs have no claim that requires relief - they will argue that the plaintiffs have no case because no court of competent jurisdiction has said that the right to bear arms exists outside the home. MD will point to "numerous cases decided since Heller" that all conclude the right is limited to the home. This will require some careful cherry-picking, but they'll do it all the same. They will point to the recent Ezell case where the SAF was denied a preliminary injunction against the Chicago gun range ban because "no harm was anticipated" by the plaintiffs. Again...serious cherry-picking that ignores a score of issues in that case.

    At some point various arguments get settled along the way and we get down to brass tacks. If MD were to file a motion using the argument I outline above, we are essentially dealing with 2A issues (where we want to be). That is when it gets more interesting.

    Overall, MD has to be careful here. If they were to get the case dismissed too soon, it will be appealed up to the Circuit level in Richmond immediately. This would actually be a bit like "fast tracking" this case up the chain. Not all defeats are bad for our side.

    As for a trial...hopefully there will not be one. Trials are used for "fact finding", not interpretation of written law. The SAF suit is asking for a review of the law, as a "matter of law". Meaning: all facts are based on written MD law and there is no need to discover anything or to ascertain the "truth" of a stated fact.

    That said, MD will ask for more "limited discovery", probably to challenge the lead Plaintiff's claim or even again to challenge SAF's standing (a lesson from Chicago, though it failed there). This will eat up more time, but not much. And it is unlikley to require a trial, maybe a hearing or two.

    At some point the court will force MD to respond to the complaint - meaning reply in detail to the charges made by the SAF that MD law is unconstitutional. That back and forth will take about 3 months, assuming the usual argument/counter-argument schedule is maintained.

    Summing up the current case status, big-picture-wise (my view): the SAF filed a complaint and MD has pulled out all the stops to avoid responding to it. At this point in time, we have yet to see MD actually address the issue at hand, though it is getting harder for them to avoid it. At some point they will have no choice but to respond, but expect at least one more attempt at misdirection from them in the meantime. We are maybe 6 months from seeing this close to done.
     

    md_rick_o

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 30, 2008
    5,112
    Severn Md.
    Summing up the current case status, big-picture-wise (my view): the SAF filed a complaint and MD has pulled out all the stops to avoid responding to it. At this point in time, we have yet to see MD actually address the issue at hand, though it is getting harder for them to avoid it. At some point they will have no choice but to respond, but expect at least one more attempt at misdirection from them in the meantime. We are maybe 6 months from seeing this close to done.


    Ok, so is there anything that common citizens pissed off with the way they are wasting time and money can DO?

    Again, thanks for these updates.
     

    Ethan83

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 8, 2009
    3,111
    Baltimoreish
    Ok, so is there anything that common citizens pissed off with the way they are wasting time and money can DO?

    Again, thanks for these updates.

    Go to the range and practice, I guess. Or donate more money to SAF. Maybe start a "Take a Lib to the Range Day" to win more public support for 2A causes?
     

    Patrick

    MSI Executive Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    7,725
    Calvert County
    Go to the range and practice, I guess. Or donate more money to SAF. Maybe start a "Take a Lib to the Range Day" to win more public support for 2A causes?

    Excellent ideas and pretty much what I am doing.

    I would also add: educate people.

    I don't suggest to my liberal friends that they go to the range with me. That's an instant knee-jerk reaction in many cases. I usually sit and go over some of the stuff we talk about here - civil rights history, reconstruction and the fact much of the work of the constitution still needs to be completed. Yeah, it's about guns - but it's also about the 14th Amendment, racial segregation, lynchings, gay rights, abortion...it's a huge umbrella we fit under.

    Eventually some say "show me." Then I give them the biggest gun I can find, load it with the hottest ammo I can get and laugh as they fall over shooting for the first time. :lol2:

    OK...more like give them a 9mm Glock, some light rounds and a paper target at 4-5 yards. Everyone likes to win the first time out.

    EDIT: Along those lines, I have a small group from Chicago coming down to learn the ropes. All friends of family we have there. All highly professional and quite liberal. They want guns. Everyone in Chicago who brings up guns wants them. Women and men alike. It's not like I advertise my leanings when out there (I rarely talk guns when out), but word gets around and they approach me.

    They all get the civil rights background. I am seriously thinking of writing something of a "backgrounder" on 2A and rights, just to save the time.
     

    yellowsled

    Retired C&R Addict
    Jun 22, 2009
    9,348
    Palm Beach, Fl
    These motions to dismiss are effectively a "trial" on procedural issues: do the plaintiff's have standing; do the plaintiff's have a claim that can be remedied, etc.

    They can go on as long as the court allows them. These current motions are all basically about standing and some other related jurisdiction/process issues. At some point the court rules one way or the other on each argument. This round of motions should be dealt with soon, as MD has all but exhausted their arguments here.

    For their next step, the state will make another motion to dismiss, again arguing that the plaintiffs have no claim that requires relief - they will argue that the plaintiffs have no case because no court of competent jurisdiction has said that the right to bear arms exists outside the home. MD will point to "numerous cases decided since Heller" that all conclude the right is limited to the home. This will require some careful cherry-picking, but they'll do it all the same. They will point to the recent Ezell case where the SAF was denied a preliminary injunction against the Chicago gun range ban because "no harm was anticipated" by the plaintiffs. Again...serious cherry-picking that ignores a score of issues in that case.

    At some point various arguments get settled along the way and we get down to brass tacks. If MD were to file a motion using the argument I outline above, we are essentially dealing with 2A issues (where we want to be). That is when it gets more interesting.

    Overall, MD has to be careful here. If they were to get the case dismissed too soon, it will be appealed up to the Circuit level in Richmond immediately. This would actually be a bit like "fast tracking" this case up the chain. Not all defeats are bad for our side.

    As for a trial...hopefully there will not be one. Trials are used for "fact finding", not interpretation of written law. The SAF suit is asking for a review of the law, as a "matter of law". Meaning: all facts are based on written MD law and there is no need to discover anything or to ascertain the "truth" of a stated fact.

    That said, MD will ask for more "limited discovery", probably to challenge the lead Plaintiff's claim or even again to challenge SAF's standing (a lesson from Chicago, though it failed there). This will eat up more time, but not much. And it is unlikley to require a trial, maybe a hearing or two.

    At some point the court will force MD to respond to the complaint - meaning reply in detail to the charges made by the SAF that MD law is unconstitutional. That back and forth will take about 3 months, assuming the usual argument/counter-argument schedule is maintained.

    Summing up the current case status, big-picture-wise (my view): the SAF filed a complaint and MD has pulled out all the stops to avoid responding to it. At this point in time, we have yet to see MD actually address the issue at hand, though it is getting harder for them to avoid it. At some point they will have no choice but to respond, but expect at least one more attempt at misdirection from them in the meantime. We are maybe 6 months from seeing this close to done.

    Excellent writeup, thanks for breaking it down for me. :thumbsup:
     

    Ethan83

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 8, 2009
    3,111
    Baltimoreish
    I am seriously thinking of writing something of a "backgrounder" on 2A and rights, just to save the time.

    Let me know if you do! Perhaps a pamphlet or brochure discussing the 2A in the context of all civil rights would be a great piece of material to help communicate with less-gun-friendly groups, for example groups that are strongly politically Liberal such as Jews, black people, etc. History has shown that "minority" groups are the ones that need civil rights protections the most, and obviously the necessity of the 2A is magnified along with that.

    Hell, maybe we should just be reprinting Justice Thomas' opinion in McDonald v Chicago.
     

    OLM-Medic

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 5, 2010
    6,588
    We are maybe 6 months from seeing this close to done.

    But then what? Even if its ruled in SAF's favor aren't we to expect appeals and such buy MD? Also, the process for changing their current system would take some time as well.

    I think a question everybody wants a estimate for is how long will it take before we can carry our guns?
     

    Nobody

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 15, 2009
    2,840
    I think a question everybody wants a estimate for is how long will it take before we can carry our guns?

    Barring a change in the law, I do not see Marylanders as a whole being able to carry for at LEAST 7 years, more probably 10.

    Our best chance is to get rid of the current antis in our legislature in less than 2 weeks. Take someone who is not going to vote with you to vote. The others stay home and we win. In the primaries the turnout was around 10-15% and if we get out there we can win even in Montgonery, PG and Balto city. WE are in control of our destiny and get the goverment we derseve by not acting.


    Praying for the best, prepared for the worst.

    NOBODY
     

    Boondock Saint

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2008
    24,456
    White Marsh
    Barring a change in the law, I do not see Marylanders as a whole being able to carry for at LEAST 7 years, more probably 10.

    Our best chance is to get rid of the current antis in our legislature in less than 2 weeks. Take someone who is not going to vote with you to vote. The others stay home and we win. In the primaries the turnout was around 10-15% and if we get out there we can win even in Montgonery, PG and Balto city. WE are in control of our destiny and get the goverment we derseve by not acting.


    Praying for the best, prepared for the worst.

    NOBODY

    I have a tentative bet with another member regarding the timeline of shall issue in our fair state. He said 10 years, and I took the under. Care to place a wager? :deal:
     

    Nobody

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 15, 2009
    2,840
    I have a tentative bet with another member regarding the timeline of shall issue in our fair state. He said 10 years, and I took the under. Care to place a wager? :deal:

    How about since you offered the bet, you make a timeline guess and let me take the over/under.

    NOBODY
     

    Ethan83

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 8, 2009
    3,111
    Baltimoreish
    Definitely less than 10 years; McDonald was filed soon after Heller was released and was decided by the SCOTUS 2 years later.

    And it's still not exactly easy to get handguns in either Chicago nor DC. My understanding is that Woollard may be decided by the SCOTUS within a year or two, but that doesn't mean that the MDSP is going to suddenly start issuing everybody a permit the very next day. I think these much longer figures are for when we'll actually walk around in public in MD with guns on our hips and permits in our wallets.
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,538
    SoMD / West PA
    And it's still not exactly easy to get handguns in either Chicago nor DC. My understanding is that Woollard may be decided by the SCOTUS within a year or two, but that doesn't mean that the MDSP is going to suddenly start issuing everybody a permit the very next day. I think these much longer figures are for when we'll actually walk around in public in MD with guns on our hips and permits in our wallets.

    I'm with you, but have a twist. The MD legislature will step in to control the change. They would not want to give up the draconian assault weapons list and Handgun roster.

    I can see the legislature defining in law what a good and substantial reason is, without letting the MSP interpret it. Smeigel is well on this correction path.
     

    Ethan83

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 8, 2009
    3,111
    Baltimoreish
    I'm with you, but have a twist. The MD legislature will step in to control the change. They would not want to give up the draconian assault weapons list and Handgun roster.

    I can see the legislature defining in law what a good and substantial reason is, without letting the MSP interpret it. Smeigel is well on this correction path.

    In the long run though, don't we want a SCOTUS decision, not just a change in MD law? I mean if the legislature changes the law and I can get a permit I'm sure as hell not gonna turn it down on principle or anything, but a "win" at the MD legislature isn't nearly as big or - more importantly - as enduring as a SCOTUS decision. Or am I misunderstanding?

    I guess the SAF is more than busy with so many cases, we oughta be getting some better clarification from the SCOTUS on the 2A with or without Woollard v MD.
     

    Nobody

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 15, 2009
    2,840
    You offered the time line, not me. Gonna answer my question? ;)

    OK I will answer, no I do not want to bet. Due to the fickleness with the law and lawyers who really knows. All I know is most people on this board were very excited about mcdonald and I, being a realist stated that "tomoorow will be like yesterday even after the decision" I even offered to pay for a permit if within one year of the decision that shall issue is the law of the land.

    Now, will you answer the question of what is your guess of a timeline?

    NOBODY
     
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