Reduced recoil vs low recoil

imaoldcowhand · Apr 15, 2020

Is there a difference?

I have a couple of cases of Federal 12ga 00 Buck
w/ 9 pellets with flight control LE 132 00, these are marketed as Reduced Recoil.

While the Federal 12ga 00 Buck w/ 8 pellets with flight control is marketed as Reduced Recoil / Low Recoil LE 133 00.

I’ve read that the 9 pellet shells are good home defense, if your not concerned with over penetration.

Both are marked, muzzle velocity 1145 FPS.

So of course living in a condo where over penetration is a concern, should I go with the 8 pellet round, stay with the 9 pellet round or get another low recoil round brand.

I bought the 9 pellet round when I lived in a brick house where over penetration was not a concern.

John from MD · Apr 15, 2020

Ammunition marketing can be confusing. I suggest you search the web for demo's of people shooting different types of ammo at drywall. I have seen a few of them over the years by "The box of truth" and others testing the marketing claims.

Obviously, if you can make your own test it is better but if you can't, the demos have good info.

GUNSnROTORS · Apr 15, 2020

Remembered Shooting Illustrated ran "Buckshot Diversity" in Jeff Johnston's April 2020 "Shotguns" column.

It's also online under a different title, "How to Choose the Right Buckshot Load for Home Defense":

https://www.shootingillustrated.com...ose-the-right-buckshot-load-for-home-defense/

danb · Apr 15, 2020

I think it's just Federal marketing. Keep in mind actual felt recoil is a function of many things including shotgun weight and stock-shoulder fitment.

Your have to shoot it to confirm but offhand I would expect 8 pellets at 1145 fps to have slightly less energy than 9 pellets at 1145, so the load with 8 pellets may have marginally less recoil. That said, whether you feel a difference is a function of many things.

Honestly I've seen a lot of videos on over penetration. The best way to avoid it is not to miss. If you are shooting a moving target running away, it's not self defense in Maryland anyway. Otherwise, 9 pellets vs 8 at 1145 will go through roughly the same amount of drywall.

alucard0822 · Apr 15, 2020

Try them both, see how they pattern and feel. 1 pellet won't make much of a difference in recoil or on target, both are good loads, but have seen some shotguns will pattern tighter with one, and send flyers with the other pellet count. Reduced/low recoil are basically marketing terms. If the slight reduction in recoil is noticeable, and helps you hit targets faster, while maintaining a tight pattern, then go with the 8 pellet. If you get a better pattern or don't feel any difference with either, might as well go 9 pellet. Figure each pellet weighs 60gr, there are 437.5gr per oz, so they are still over an ounce loads, sometimes the lightweight 7/8, and 1oz low recoil slugs have noticeably less recoil than buck loads, and less chance of errant flyers. The overpenetration thing has a little truth and a lot of BS with it. IMO the best way to avoid hitting an innocent bystander is to find the best spot to stay and defend your family in your home, and choosing an effective load with decent practice and training to limit the number of shots you may have to use to stop a threat. In that way a hit with a slug or two with a wall leading to woods behind it is far safer than a person blasting a tube full of bird shot as the intruder mag dumps pistol ammo in each others general direction surrounded by other people's bedrooms.

slsc98 · Apr 15, 2020

imaoldcowhand said:
Is there a difference?

I have a couple of cases of Federal 12ga 00 Buck
w/ 9 pellets with flight control LE 132 00, these are marketed as Reduced Recoil.

While the Federal 12ga 00 Buck w/ 8 pellets with flight control is marketed as Reduced Recoil / Low Recoil LE 133 00.

I’ve read that the 9 pellet shells are good home defense, if your not concerned with over penetration.

Both are marked, muzzle velocity 1145 FPS.

So of course living in a condo where over penetration is a concern, should I go with the 8 pellet round, stay with the 9 pellet round or get another low recoil round brand.

I bought the 9 pellet round when I lived in a brick house where over penetration was not a concern.

I wouldn’t get too wrapped around the axle over the adjectives “reduced” vs “low” but I personally and based on my own experience cannot overstate the improved effectiveness and patterning of those Federal LE 8-pellet flight controlled wad buckshot loads over any other 9-pellet load. 9 pellet loadings CONSISTENTLY produce a “flyer” pellet and shot to shot patterning proved it’d be even Einstein’s guess as to where and how far outside the the other 8 pellets that 9th projectile is going to appear (and wad, for that matter).

Those Federal LE 8-pellet flight controlled wad buckshot loads on the other hand rarely failed to blow people’s minds with how consistent the pellets pattern! I have two Vang-comped 870 barrels and out of one of them it was possible to cover the hole ALL 8 pellets made by those Federal LE 8-pellet flight controlled wad buckshot rounds - WITH A 3x5 index card - FROM 15 YARDS!

Again, that’s out of a barrel worked by Hans Vang but, even out of stock 18.5” 870 barrels those Federal LE 8-pellet flight controlled wad buckshot loads will produce those enviable of patterns at 7-10 yards (which I would imagine would be the yardages more often encountered inside a residence).

I do love me some Federal LE 8-pellet flight controlled wad buckshot loads! :party29:

danb · Apr 15, 2020

ETA: When it comes to overpenetration, remember the wise words of boxotruth.

https://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-91-lets-talk-about-buckshot/

2. Buckshot penetrates too much and will go through walls in my home.

Sure it will. Any load that will STOP a bad guy, will also penetrate several interior walls, as I proved.

Until someone invents a phaser, like on Star Trek, any load that will STOP a bad guy will also penetrate several walls..

IronEye · Apr 15, 2020

The reduced recoil/managed recoil loads are reported by many to pattern better than full power loads.

Flight control wads are also reported to shoot about 1 choke value tighter.
Personally I have low recoil loads in the house gun. I figure that those loads are going to be adequate and the reduced recoil gets me back on target faster.

I have not tried patterning these personally. I have shot enough loads to be sure that they function but practice with low recoil slugs so that i don't destroy my target frame at 25 yards.

Biggfoot44 · Apr 15, 2020

Reduced vs Low vs Lite is (marketing) semantics . ( Yes,there is a significant difference between reduced vs standard vs magnum . )

The patterning of buckshot is the most important factor . The LE132 has a long history of excellent patterns . Not as familar with the LE133, but Rem' competing 8 pellet load is kinda average .

Between the two Federal loads , the energy ( & penetration) should be the same pellet for pellet .

IF it is absolutely , positively , for indoor only , AND you have made your determination that overpenetration is important issue to your situation , then reconsider the size of the Buck, and think about 1B , or gasp, horror 4B .

jcutonilli · Apr 15, 2020

danb said:
ETA: When it comes to overpenetration, remember the wise words of boxotruth.

https://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-91-lets-talk-about-buckshot/

As much as I like the testing that they do at theboxotruth, I am not sure they are correct about the over penetration. Their conclusion is based on the FBI gel test standard of 12 in min.

While the gel may correlate to pig muscle, the 12 in distance is an artificial number. This is because we are made of more than muscle. This distance may be appropriate to compare one handgun bullet to another, but is entirely inappropriate to determine real incapacitation potential.

Other people have done testing on real pig muscle and bones and have found that bird shot is capable of penetrating to vital organs at close distances, even though it fails the simulated gel tests.

There is anecdotal evidence of bird shot killing/incapacitating people and not killing/incapacitating people. For every caliber there is anecdotal evidence of that caliber killing/incapacitating and not killing/incapacitating people.

There is no perfect answer.

If I lived in a condo like the OP and it was of typical condo construction, I would not use 00 buck due to over penetration.

Catch-10-22 · Apr 15, 2020

I would check out the Lucky Gunner buckshot tests. They say the 9 pellet gets a flyer more than the 8 pellet with the Federal FCW. YMMV.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/more-stuff-you-should-know-about-buckshot-part-2/

John from MD · Apr 15, 2020

jcutonilli said:
As much as I like the testing that they do at theboxotruth, I am not sure they are correct about the over penetration. Their conclusion is based on the FBI gel test standard of 12 in min.

While the gel may correlate to pig muscle, the 12 in distance is an artificial number. This is because we are made of more than muscle. This distance may be appropriate to compare one handgun bullet to another, but is entirely inappropriate to determine real incapacitation potential.

Other people have done testing on real pig muscle and bones and have found that bird shot is capable of penetrating to vital organs at close distances, even though it fails the simulated gel tests.

There is anecdotal evidence of bird shot killing/incapacitating people and not killing/incapacitating people. For every caliber there is anecdotal evidence of that caliber killing/incapacitating and not killing/incapacitating people.

There is no perfect answer.

If I lived in a condo like the OP and it was of typical condo construction, I would not use 00 buck due to over penetration.

I have seen what bird shot does in actual shootings and none of the perps had sufficient injuries to make them stop. Bird shot should never enter into the equation.

danb · Apr 15, 2020

jcutonilli said:
As much as I like the testing that they do at theboxotruth, I am not sure they are correct about the over penetration. Their conclusion is based on the FBI gel test standard of 12 in min.

While the gel may correlate to pig muscle, the 12 in distance is an artificial number. This is because we are made of more than muscle. This distance may be appropriate to compare one handgun bullet to another, but is entirely inappropriate to determine real incapacitation potential.

Other people have done testing on real pig muscle and bones and have found that bird shot is capable of penetrating to vital organs at close distances, even though it fails the simulated gel tests.

There is anecdotal evidence of bird shot killing/incapacitating people and not killing/incapacitating people. For every caliber there is anecdotal evidence of that caliber killing/incapacitating and not killing/incapacitating people.

There is no perfect answer.

If I lived in a condo like the OP and it was of typical condo construction, I would not use 00 buck due to over penetration.

I've seen the videos of bird shot on dead pigs. I've also seen what real bird shot does to live animals. Dead muscle, skin, and bone does not react the same as live muscle, skin, and bone.

Suffice it to say...birdshot is good if you are attacked by a bird. Not so much for a 2 legged mammal.

As far as what to use- 93% of the time (DOJ statistics) the mere brandishing of a weapon is enough to make the bad guy bolt. At which point, you cant shoot anyway.

But the other 7% of the time- whether high or desperate- you better have more than salt rock or bird shot. And probably more than one shot. And live animals dont drop instantly like in the movies either. After shooting them you've got maybe 30 seconds to a minute and a half of time where you can still be attacked.

The best solution for overpentration is dont miss (get a red dot).

jcutonilli · Apr 15, 2020

John from MD said:
I have seen what bird shot does in actual shootings and none of the perps had sufficient injuries to make them stop. Bird shot should never enter into the equation.

Your not familiar with all bird shot shootings. There are instances where bird shot has killed people. Given the limited numbers of those murdered with a shotgun, I suspect you have very limited experience.

There are also lots of instances where other calibers have not been effective either, but people don't discount using them because of those instances.

John from MD · Apr 15, 2020

jcutonilli said:
Your not familiar with all bird shot shootings. There are instances where bird shot has killed people. Given the limited numbers of those murdered with a shotgun, I suspect you have very limited experience.

There are also lots of instances where other calibers have not been effective either, but people don't discount using them because of those instances.

I guess if you have time to aim, and your shotgun shoots to POA, you can shoot the bad guy in the face and will probably stop him. But if you miss and hit him in the chest, you might just have a bloody flesh wound which may not stop him soon enough.

Muleskinner · Apr 15, 2020

When I was in the military we actually tested the spread and pattern of buckshot as it was important in a shipboard defensive issue. Shotguns were our primary weapon in case of boarding by terrorists or enemy combatants. Our shotguns were 18" 870s and Mossberg 500s. We used Remington standard velocity 2 3/4 00 buck. We studied the average distance that such a shooting would take place internal to the ship and found that it was about 7 yards (the average home defense shooting is 7 feet). The shotguns all had fixed cylinder bores. At 7 yards the average spread was around 6.5 inches. So at the average home defense range of seven feet the average spread would be well under that...probably less than 3 inches.

We also tested other types of shells to experiment with possible alternatives. The spread distance didn't change that much. Why would you discount a load of bird shot with a 3 inch spread at 7 feet as ineffective? Because it doesn't have enough velocity to penetrate?

John from MD · Apr 15, 2020

Birdshot does not have enough mass to penetrate to the vital areas of the body. True a person may eventually die from loss of blood but they can do a lot of damage before they finally bleed out.

jcutonilli · Apr 15, 2020

danb said:
I've seen the videos of bird shot on dead pigs. I've also seen what real bird shot does to live animals. Dead muscle, skin, and bone does not react the same as live muscle, skin, and bone.

Suffice it to say...birdshot is good if you are attacked by a bird. Not so much for a 2 legged mammal.

As far as what to use- 93% of the time (DOJ statistics) the mere brandishing of a weapon is enough to make the bad guy bolt. At which point, you cant shoot anyway.

But the other 7% of the time- whether high or desperate- you better have more than salt rock or bird shot. And probably more than one shot. And live animals dont drop instantly like in the movies either. After shooting them you've got maybe 30 seconds to a minute and a half of time where you can still be attacked.

The best solution for overpentration is dont miss (get a red dot).

I am not trying to argue we have a perfect way to simulate gunshot wounds. I am arguing that 12 inches of ballistic gel is not a reliable way to determine incapacitation from a gunshot.

If you are likely to need more than one shot how does a shooting that likely has one shot really prove anything?

While not missing is the best solution, it is not a realistic one for most people, which is why over penetration can be important.

jcutonilli · Apr 15, 2020

John from MD said:
Birdshot does not have enough mass to penetrate to the vital areas of the body. True a person may eventually die from loss of blood but they can do a lot of damage before they finally bleed out.

Most 12 ga bird shot loads contain at least an ounce of shot (437 gr) which is 2-4 times that of typical rifle/pistol ammo. While the individual pellets do not reliably penetrate to vital areas, they certainly can. Up close within ~3-5 yards the shot is still concentrated and can penetrate much more than what individual pellets can. This change is why bird shot can be effective in certain situations, but not others.

jcutonilli · Apr 15, 2020

John from MD said:
I guess if you have time to aim, and your shotgun shoots to POA, you can shoot the bad guy in the face and will probably stop him. But if you miss and hit him in the chest, you might just have a bloody flesh wound which may not stop him soon enough.

And how is that any different with other calibers? According to data, head shots are ~85% effective, torso shots ~40% and extremities ~15%. Where you shoot them matters, what you shoot them with not so much.

Reduced recoil vs low recoil

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