AGC 3 Gun Match - Saturday, November 9th

Art3 said:

I'm not going to rat anyone out, but I know what happened...and I also know that you weren't the only one who did it (and it made the rest of us who hadn't shot that stage yet extra extra cautious).

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I don't get many opportunities to go first, because the order is generally alphabetized, but next time I'm in a similar situation I may watch the group in front of us more closely.

Katie has some videos that I'm waiting for her to post. She put them on facebook, and some didn't work right. I don't know what the hold up is

This was definitely more challenging than the other small matches we'd done. The 2 min par time was a little frustrating. I knew I was going to be quite slow on shotgun and not exactly speedy on rifle...but I ran out of time before I could shoot pistol on two stages. That was a bummer. I know they need to get shooters through in a timely manner, but check out my math here: assuming there where 60 shooters, giving an additional 30 seconds to the par time would only make the match take half an hour longer if everyone used it, right? Obviously not everyone would use the extra, so it ultimately extend the match even less. Seeing a shooter I know to be experienced and faster than me time out before I went made me feel like, "Damn! What chance do I have?" It definitely changed the mental dynamic of the game from one of racing the clock for my personal best to racing the clock just to be able to play to the end. But, we adapted and opted to leave targets standing in order to get to the later ones.

I knew the practice we put in beforehand, so I'm A-ok with being slow. My personal disappointments were my pistol accuracy (I used to be really good with my 1991A1...I guess I've become too accustomed to the plastic fantastic I shoot in steel challenge ), and my M1A malfunctioned on the last stage That's never happened to me before Of course, there was no time to diagnose the problem beyond getting it cleared...so I have no idea why it happened and it is going to haunt me until I get it figured out.

But, it was still a lot of fun

Art3 said:

Katie has some videos that I'm waiting for her to post. She put them on facebook, and some didn't work right. I don't know what the hold up is

This was definitely more challenging than the other small matches we'd done. The 2 min par time was a little frustrating. I knew I was going to be quite slow on shotgun and not exactly speedy on rifle...but I ran out of time before I could shoot pistol on two stages. That was a bummer. I know they need to get shooters through in a timely manner, but check out my math here: assuming there where 60 shooters, giving an additional 30 seconds to the par time would only make the match take half an hour longer if everyone used it, right? Obviously not everyone would use the extra, so it ultimately extend the match even less. Seeing a shooter I know to be experienced and faster than me time out before I went made me feel like, "Damn! What chance do I have?" It definitely changed the mental dynamic of the game from one of racing the clock for my personal best to racing the clock just to be able to play to the end. But, we adapted and opted to leave targets standing in order to get to the later ones.

I knew the practice we put in beforehand, so I'm A-ok with being slow. My personal disappointments were my pistol accuracy (I used to be really good with my 1991A1...I guess I've become too accustomed to the plastic fantastic I shoot in steel challenge ), and my M1A malfunctioned on the last stage That's never happened to me before Of course, there was no time to diagnose the problem beyond getting it cleared...so I have no idea why it happened and it is going to haunt me until I get it figured out.

But, it was still a lot of fun

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But that M1A sure was pretty...

I've come across the 120 second "rule" at other matches. Get faster, or different equipment...

Bikebreath said:

I've come across the 120 second "rule" at other matches. Get faster, or different equipment...

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So, 120 second Par Time is pretty standard and likely will not change. It is designed to keep things moving and it forces the shooter to strategize and plan. I learned that this was a brand new concept to some of the first time shooters. Now that they are aware of it, my guess is that they will plan their shoot and shoot their plan more efficiently. I know I also learned this the hard way when I first started shooting 3 gun.

One learns very quickly that you can not spend too much time on any one prop and that you need to know when to call it quits and move on. The most important thing from an overall timing/scoring perspective is that the shooter ENGAGE every target, even if they do not NUETRALIZE all of them. Penalties are far greater on FTE (Failure to Engage), than on FTN (Failure to Neutralize); plus it is no fun if you don't get to shoot the entire course.


When my partner (the stage designer) and I debriefed, I covered this topic and several other feedback items that I received with him. He told me that he received some of the same feedback, however was also told by others that the stages were not challenging enough (did you know we had 3 members of the Marine Corps shooting team with us this weekend?). This is something that we all encountered when we first started shooting 3 Gun and we quickly learned that Planning and equipment choices are every bit as important as shooting accurately.

So herein lies the challenge for us. We want to attract as many new shooters as possible, but also want to keep it interesting enough for the seasoned guys keep showing up and bringing their friends. It is a juggling act that is tough to be perfect on, because no matter what somebody is not going to be satisfied. Because of this, we are probably going to ask that the less seasoned shooters bring their game up rather than expecting those who have put in the time/money to bring theirs down. We still want feedback/constructive criticisms, and will make adjustments where it makes sense, but making things easier probably is not on that list. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh or unwelcoming, but this is the direction things are going to head in, at least as far as our Monthly 3 Gun Matches are concerned.

So in summary, I would recommend working on or focusing on the following to those who felt the courses to be too challenging and the par times to be too short.

1. Planning/Strategy - Be aware that there is a 120 second Par Time on each Course Of Fire *unless stated otherwise) - Don't spend too much time/ammo trying to neutralize any one prop. Have a plan, work the plan, and nine times out of ten the plan will work.

2. Equipment/Divisions - Don't bring or use equipment that will slow you down. Pump Shotguns, especially those without extended magazine tubes are a time killer. Heavy Metal is a division that is really for more seasoned shooters (even though it does not require a pump, it does require firearms with lower overall capacities and lots more recoil and target acquisition time). If you don't have a shotgun set up for 3 gun, then borrow one from someone who does. This is typical and has never been an issue for anyone at any match I have ever been to.

Also, invest in a solid 3 Gun Rig (belt, holster, Rifle/Pistol mag pouches and SHOTGUN SHELL CADDIES. You can't expect to keep up without the proper equipment. I know that all of this can require a large capital outlay. Three Gun is very expensive to get into which is why it is not as popular as steel challenge, IDPA, etc.

3. When spring comes, start attending our Thursday evening practice sessions. We normally focus on Pistol, Rifle, or Shotgun (sometimes two guns). Attendance is typically small and you get to shoot with a lot with guys who know what they are doing and can help mentor you on how to become a quicker, more efficient shooter. If time allows, we may even schedule some weekend sessions like that are that work the same way.

It is very tough to balance making things inviting for new people, and challenging enough for experienced shooters. I think briefly covering those things you guys found in your debrief, during the briefing would be helpful for newer 3 gun shooters.

Because of the limitations of the range, there are certain things that we cannot do. So some of the people who have been at places with more extensive ranges, may find some things at the AGC too easy, not really anything we can do about that. I don't think it needs dumbed down any. But making some things clear at the start will allow less experienced shooters to feel they had a more positive experience. I know I read the rules, but some things just aren't clear until you do it.

One thing I will add. I know things need to be kept moving. But there were times that I felt there was a urgent rush to get the next shooter started shooting. That can lead to them getting frazzled. Then others took their time and stood at each shooting point planning their stage. If that is allowed, which I believe it is, maybe we don't rush the next person to go so much.

For so many people who have been long term AGC members, this is all pretty new, and they don't know what they don't know. They just want to not get in trouble, not get DQ'ed, and not feel like they are causing any issues, or holding anyone up.

Finally, to me, regarding difficulty moving forward, the question is what is this meant to be? A welcoming match for AGC members? A place that AGC members can come and at least have fun and maybe not be very competitive, but feel like they had a good time and decide to invest in serious equipment. Or is the plan to be world class? To attract the best 3 gun shooters in the area, and well, if average guys are turned off because they don't know the minutiae of the sport, f-em?

Just my thoughts on this grey morning.

knovotny said:

It is very tough to balance making things inviting for new people, and challenging enough for experienced shooters. I think briefly covering those things you guys found in your debrief, during the briefing would be helpful for newer 3 gun shooters. _- Noted and reasonable - While it is impossible to cover all 15 pages of rules, we will definitely bring up the timing issue at the next briefing.

Because of the limitations of the range, there are certain things that we cannot do. So some of the people who have been at places with more extensive ranges, may find some things at the AGC too easy, not really anything we can do about that. I don't think it needs dumbed down any. But making some things clear at the start will allow less experienced shooters to feel they had a more positive experience. I know I read the rules, but some things just aren't clear until you do it. - Noted and we will do our best - I remember my first few matches and I learned a lot of these things the hard way too. After awhile, they become second nature. It is hard to touch on everything.

One thing I will add. I know things need to be kept moving. But there were times that I felt there was a urgent rush to get the next shooter started shooting. That can lead to them getting frazzled. Then others took their time and stood at each shooting point planning their stage. If that is allowed, which I believe it is, maybe we don't rush the next person to go so much. - Something else we don't announce, but everyone is given 5 minutes prior to the squad shooting a stage, to review it and plan. Shooters are expected to be ready when they step to the line. I am personally guilty of taking an extra minute or two to review my plan in my head when I step to the line. This is because I have been busy attending to everyone else when I was supposed to be planning. I will do my best to not do this going forward.

For so many people who have been long term AGC members, this is all pretty new, and they don't know what they don't know. They just want to not get in trouble, not get DQ'ed, and not feel like they are causing any issues, or holding anyone up.

Finally, to me, regarding difficulty moving forward, the question is what is this meant to be? A welcoming match for AGC members? A place that AGC members can come and at least have fun and maybe not be very competitive, but feel like they had a good time and decide to invest in serious equipment. Or is the plan to be world class? To attract the best 3 gun shooters in the area, and well, if average guys are turned off because they don't know the minutiae of the sport, f-em? - Simple answer, tough solution is that we want it all. We want to grow this program and this match in particular and make it as competitive as possible. At the same time we want to be friendly enough to new shooters so that they feel comfortable and have fun. Again, we offer Thursday night practices and may very well start weekend practices as well. At some point, once this match has matured, we may start to offer a less competitive match. Need someone to step up an run it; volunteers anyone?

Just my thoughts on this grey morning.

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see responses above

Thanks for the thoughtful responses! I didn't intend to call you out specifically on the stage planning. It's very hard to run something, and participate. Making sure everyone knows they have time at the beginning to do a walk through, and then for the first person to get loaded and ready would alleviate that stress for sure. Eventually going to 2 matches a month sounds like a great idea too. A beginner friendly match and a "pro"match. I personally can't get out to the AGC for practices during the week, so weekend practices sound fun. Getting volunteers to commit to running it all is the hard part. I appreciate all the work you and others have put into this, and I look forward to future matches.

It sounds like you need to manage expectations prior to the match. I'm betting I know the three Marines who shot there, and I think at least one helps with the 3-gun match at Quantico. You might want to pick their brains on match set up and such next time you see them.

I timed out on two stages at the previous Sunday match, which was my first real multi-gun match ever, and here's my opinion: the 120 second par time is more than adequate, especially given that the stages were ~30 rounds total. I timed out because I didn't have the appropriate (and reliable) 3GN guns/gear, I was slow loading shotgun, and didn't do a great job of stage planning (especially the shotgun bits). That's all on me, and they're all things I've improved for the next go-around.

I think the level of hand-holding at the last match was MORE than adequate. It's a competition. You can bring whatever guns, gear, and skill you have, but no one can to guarantee you're competitive with those.

erwos said:

I timed out on two stages at the previous Sunday match, which was my first real multi-gun match ever, and here's my opinion: the 120 second par time is more than adequate, especially given that the stages were ~30 rounds total. I timed out because I didn't have the appropriate (and reliable) 3GN guns/gear, I was slow loading shotgun, and didn't do a great job of stage planning (especially the shotgun bits). That's all on me, and they're all things I've improved for the next go-around.

I think the level of hand-holding at the last match was MORE than adequate. It's a competition. You can bring whatever guns, gear, and skill you have, but no one can to guarantee you're competitive with those.

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I don't think taking 5 minutes in the briefing to let people know (or remind them) of the main rules/scoring/procedures is excessive hand holding. This is a new event for the AGC. Yes, it's a competition, but it is also a learning experience. Do you want people to have fun and come back, or do you want people to say what a bunch of pricks, the experienced guys couldn't be bothered to help a fellow shooter out. Heck, there was some scoring input "discussion" by the people doing the scoring input. No one wants to be guaranteed to be competitive. But they don't want to feel like they were treated poorly because they are inexperienced either. (I'm not saying anyone feels they were treated poorly)

What level of hand holding was too much to you this past weekend? I mostly saw people clarifying procedures because they didn't want to do the wrong thing regarding when to load, and some of the instructions at the briefing were a bit vague to people who had not done this before, or who had done some of the early stuff with Arlington on the 200yd when there were some crazy rules.

I think that this is getting a tad bit out of hand. We understand the frusterations of those just getting introduced to 3 Gun becuase we went through them ourselves. That said, do you remember the feeling you got when you smoked that clay that was thrown out of the toaster? Those are the things that keep you coming back and working hard to get better.

It is much like the game of golf. The course is the same for everyone, some are highly skilled/experienced, others are beginners and they struggle at first. The course doesn't change or get easier just because you are new and want it to be more fun. That wouldn't be fair to the seasoned golfer who has put in the time/money. Even still, just about every golfer, no matter their what skill level, cranks the shit out of at least one drive, or has a chip shot that makes it within inches of the hole, or sinks that 45 ft put. Those are the shots they think about when they drive home that night and those are the reason that they come back. The more you shoot three gun, the more highs you are going to get and the more you are going to love it.

We are willing to help anybody who is struggling by giving tips, loaning our equipment, and giving feedback. If you are on our email list, then you received this sent out by my partner today. If you are not, then you should subscribe at

https://associatedgunclubs.org/action_shooting/

SHOTGUN TIPS FOR 3 GUN
The AGCAS 3 gun Event this past Saturday was very competitive with the top four shooters finishing within two seconds of each other. This four stage event was of medium difficulty in all skill areas.

SHOTGUN seemed to be an issue for most shooters. The SHOTGUN is a tool just like Rifle and Pistol and requires lots of practice to get completive. Shooting a Shotgun in competition requires specific skills to control recoil plus loading techniques are critical in most matches. If you want to improve your times and not time out one bit of advice is PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE !

A few youtube links to help with shotgun. First one shows how the shooters upper body is locked in turning his entire upper body like a tank turret SWEEPING the targets, not pushing the shotgun away from his face to acquire targets. The second shows how to QUAD load strong hand. Hope these help!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMFXvcADS5A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USdFTFG0iCI

knovotny said:

What level of hand holding was too much to you this past weekend? I mostly saw people clarifying procedures because they didn't want to do the wrong thing regarding when to load, and some of the instructions at the briefing were a bit vague to people who had not done this before, or who had done some of the early stuff with Arlington on the 200yd when there were some crazy rules.

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To clarify, I was there on the previous Sunday match. I spent a LOT of time reading the rules before I went to that match. I asked a bunch of questions beforehand. If I needed guidance on when to do something when setting up on the stage, I asked. If I didn't 100% understand the stage, I asked during the stage brief. Everyone graciously answered, and that was exactly what I needed. It's a game; the players reading the rules is a reasonable expectation.

You sound a lot like me when I first started shooting IDPA (which also has too many freaking rules) a year or so ago. I did two things to get past that:
1. Read the rules more carefully, and did some research.
2. Kept showing up and shooting.

You do those two things, I guarantee you'll feel like a pro soon enough, I promise. Do some regular dry-fire at home, and you may even start winning.

MEGARMS said:

It is much like the game of golf. The course is the same for everyone, some are highly skilled/experienced, others are beginners and they struggle at first. The course doesn't change or get easier just because you are new and want it to be more fun. That wouldn't be fair to the seasoned golfer who has put in the time/money. Even still, just about every golfer, no matter their what skill level, cranks the shit out of at least one drive, or has a chip shot that makes it within inches of the hole, or sinks that 45 ft put. Those are the shots they think about when they drive home that night and those are the reason that they come back. The more you shoot three gun, the more highs you are going to get and the more you are going to love it.

We are willing to help anybody who is struggling by giving tips, loaning our equipment, and giving feedback.

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Well said. I saw a ton of people giving tips, sharing ideas, helping people plan stages etc on Saturday. I started shooting 3 gun a couple years ago in the early days of these events at AGC and have found the group to be very encouraging and helpful especially if you ask, act humble, and take advice. Everyone who has competed in virtually any sport knows that you can always find something to complain about or something that could be done better at competitive events. I'm appreciative of this crew's dedication and willingness to listen, learn, and improve every time they put something on. Cheers to the group and many thanks to all those who put in many volunteer hours to put these events on.

Oh, my head, what a headache! All of this heavy conversation! Too complicated for me. I'll just have to stick to my three gun in the back yard: BB, pellet and water!

Ecestu said:

But that M1A sure was pretty...

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Thank you I accept that it is an AR world, and the AR's superiorities have been discussed ad nauseum on here , but there is still something eyecatchingly badass about the M1A. It shows its venerable Garand lineage, with a few "modern" tweaks, to include 20+ rounds of full sized American (not varmint caliber) justice ( It also has "that thing that goes up" on the back, specifically designed to drive liberals crazy).

I was worried that I wouldn't be allowed to shoot it. Now that I've gotten that out of my system, I'll be ok with shooting something next time with a little more manageable recoil...and less expensive appetite.

I will miss the authority with which .30 cal lets the steel know it's been hit though

I'd only half jokingly suggest that anyone who thought it was too easy clearly wasn't pushing themselves or their friends hard enough. NASCAR is just driving around in circles, right? That sounds pretty darn easy until you get passed

Art3 said:

"that thing that goes up" on the back, specifically designed to drive liberals crazy).

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OK. So what is the thing that goes up?

MEGARMS said:

OK. So what is the thing that goes up?

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Happy switch?

Ecestu said:

Happy switch?

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So, this gun gets an erection? I thought it only gave those to it owner and other admirers?