C&R vs. HQL

Streetgang · Aug 25, 2015

fidelity said:
Another potentially useful thing about buying a C&R gun for someone that doesn't have an HQL is that the buyer now has a regulated firearm in MD's eyes. Would this eliminate the training requirement for them should they seek an HQL, or did the firearm need to be obtained before FSA 2013 went into effect?

The latter. The exemption is for those who owned before FSA.

swinokur · Aug 25, 2015

Nope that will work. Some guys here have done just that BTW.The statute simply says you're training exempt if "you own a regulated firearm". Doesn't stipulate where or when you bought it. As I read this even if you bought the gun before you came to MD, the fact you own it makes you training exempt MSP has no record of a firearm bought out of state and then legally brought to MD. That would be ownership as defined in the statute.

IANAL

Streetgang · Aug 25, 2015

swinokur said:
Nope that will work. The statute simply says you're training exempt if "you own a regulated firearm". Doesn't stipulate where or when you bought it. As I read this even if you bough t the gun before you came to MD, the fact you own it makes you training exempt. MSP does not have to have a record of it to make you training exempt as I read the statute.

IANAL

Incorrect. It specifically states before OCT 1, 2013
From the MSP website:

Required to have the HQL, but exempt from the training component
1.Someone who completed a firearms safety training course approved by the Secretary of the Department of Maryland State Police.
2.Has completed a course of instruction in the competency and safety of firearms as prescribed under Natural Resources Article, §10-301.1, Annotated Code of Maryland. Application for the Maryland Department of Natural Resources Hunter Safety Course Certificate can be obtained from here and may be used in lieu of Qualified Handgun Instruction.
3.Is currently a qualified handgun instructor.
4.Is an honorably discharged member of the armed forces of the United States or National Guard.
5.Is an employee of an armored car company who has a handgun permit issued by MSP.
6.Lawfully owns a regulated firearm. If you already own a handgun or assault weapon prior to October 1, 2013, you do not have to complete the training to apply for the Handgun Qualification License.

swinokur · Aug 25, 2015

I have read that and that is not what the statute says.

Statute

[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]0 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]([/FONT][FONT=&quot]E[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) A[/FONT][FONT=&quot]N APPLICANT FOR A HANDGUN QUALIFICATION LICENSE IS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]NO[/FONT][FONT=&quot]T REQUIRED TO COMPLETE A FIREARMS SAFETY TRAINING COURSE UNDER[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]SUBSECTION [/FONT][FONT=&quot]([/FONT][FONT=&quot]D[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]O[/FONT][FONT=&quot]F THIS SECTION IF THE APPLICANT[/FONT][FONT=&quot]:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot](1) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]H[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A[/FONT][FONT=&quot]S COMPLETED A CERTIFIED FIREARMS TRAINING COURSE[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]8 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]APPROVED BY THE [/FONT][FONT=&quot]S[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ECRETARY[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 [/FONT][FONT=&quot](2) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]H[/FONT][FONT=&quot]AS COMPLETED A COURSE OF INSTRUCTION IN COMPETENCY[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3[/FONT][FONT=&quot]0 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]AND SAFETY IN THE HANDLING OF FIREARMS PRESCRIBED BY THE [/FONT][FONT=&quot]D[/FONT][FONT=&quot]EPARTMENT[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]S[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ENATE BILL 281 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]29[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]O[/FONT][FONT=&quot]F [/FONT][FONT=&quot]N[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ATURAL [/FONT][FONT=&quot]R[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ESOURCES UNDER [/FONT][FONT=&quot]§ 10–301.1 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]O[/FONT][FONT=&quot]F THE [/FONT][FONT=&quot]N[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A[/FONT][FONT=&quot]T[/FONT][FONT=&quot]U[/FONT][FONT=&quot]RAL [/FONT][FONT=&quot]R[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ESOURCES[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A[/FONT][FONT=&quot]RTICLE[/FONT][FONT=&quot];[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] (3) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]IS [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]0 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTOR[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]OR[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] (4) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]IS AN HONORABLY DISCHARGED MEMBER OF THE[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]ARMED FORCES OF THE [/FONT][FONT=&quot]U[/FONT][FONT=&quot]N[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I[/FONT][FONT=&quot]T[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ED [/FONT][FONT=&quot]S[/FONT][FONT=&quot]T[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ATES OR THE [/FONT][FONT=&quot]N[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ATIONAL [/FONT][FONT=&quot]G[/FONT][FONT=&quot]U[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ARD[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]OR[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot](5) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]IS AN EMPLOYEE OF AN ARMORED CAR COMPANY AND[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]H[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A[/FONT][FONT=&quot]S A PERMIT ISSUED UNDER [/FONT][FONT=&quot]T[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I[/FONT][FONT=&quot]T[/FONT][FONT=&quot]L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]E [/FONT][FONT=&quot]5,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]S[/FONT][FONT=&quot]UB[/FONT][FONT=&quot]T[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I[/FONT][FONT=&quot]T[/FONT][FONT=&quot]L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]E [/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]O[/FONT][FONT=&quot]F THE [/FONT][FONT=&quot]P[/FONT][FONT=&quot]U[/FONT][FONT=&quot]B[/FONT][FONT=&quot]L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]IC [/FONT][FONT=&quot]S[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A[/FONT][FONT=&quot]F[/FONT][FONT=&quot]E[/FONT][FONT=&quot]T[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Y[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A[/FONT][FONT=&quot]RTICLE [/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]OR[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 [/FONT][FONT=&quot](6) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]LAWFULLY OWNS A REGULATED FIREARM[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

So if you bought a C&R handgun today out of state and then applied for an HQL, the fact that you OWN a regulated firearm, merans you could then get an HQLand be training exempt. Some guys here have done that BTW.

The MSP FAQ assumes you bought the regulated firearm in MD. C&R purchases out of state do not go through MSP. They can be shipped straight to the FFL 03 holder by BATFE regs. You then own a regulated firearm and are training exempt, by the actual statute even after FSA 2013 was passed.

The guy who wroite the MSP FAQ forgot about C&R purchases out of state.

Streetgang · Aug 25, 2015

Fair enough. Thanks. Old Dog new tricks.

swinokur said:
I have read that and that is not what the statute says.

Statute

So if you bought a C&R handgun today out of state and then applied for an HQL, the fact that you OWN a regulated firearm, merans you could then get an HQLand be training exempt. Some guys here have done that BTW.

The MSP FAQ assumes you bought the regulated firearm in MD. C&R purchases out of state do not go through MSP. They can be shipped straight to the FFL 03 holder by BATFE regs. You then own a regulated firearm and are training exempt, by the actual statute even after FSA 2013 was passed.

The guy who wroite the MSP FAQ forgot about C&R purchases out of state.

swinokur · Aug 25, 2015

I tend not to rely on FAQS alone for accurate info. They can sometimes have errors or omissions. The MSP FAQ is a perfect example. The person who wrote it forgot about out of state C&R purchases or it was omitted to keep folks from thinking about it. But it's perfectly legal according to the statute. A couple of MDS members have done this to get a training exempt HQL.

I am guessing the folks who wrote FSA 2013 either did not know about out of state C&R purchases or forgot about it.

either way we win.

Streetgang · Aug 25, 2015

swinokur said:
I tend not to rely on FAQS alone for accurate info. They can sometimes have errors or omissions. The MSP FAQ is a perfect example. The person who wrote it forgot about out of state C&R purchases or it was omitted to keep folks from thinking about it. But it's perfectly legal according to the statute. A couple of MDS members have done this to get a training exempt HQL.

I am guessing the folks who wrote FSA 2013 either did not know about out of state C&R purchases or forgot about it.

either way we win.

Agreed. The law is so full of holes and traps for the unsuspecting it's absolutely ridiculous.

swinokur · Aug 25, 2015

The other scenario is you live out of state and you legally purchase a handgun in 2014. Then you move to MD and register the firearm. You are then entitled to an HQL training exempt because you OWN a registered firearm, even after 10-1-13.

MSP assumes you bought thre firearm in MD. The statute doesn't state you must have purchased the regulated firearm in MD, only that you OWN one.

Mark75H · Aug 25, 2015

You also can't go by the text of SB281 from the MGA ... MSP wrote something different into COMAR and the legislature approved MSP's version

swinokur · Aug 25, 2015

true but the part I posted did not change. Comar refers back to PSA 5-117 which says the same thing:

(e) An applicant for a handgun qualification license is not required to complete a firearms safety training course under subsection (d) of this section if the applicant:
(1) has completed a certified firearms training course approved by the Secretary;
(2) has completed a course of instruction in competency and safety in the handling of firearms prescribed by the Department of Natural Resources under § 10–301.1 of the Natural Resources Article;
(3) is a qualified handgun instructor;
(4) is an honorably discharged member of the armed forces of the United States or the National Guard;
(5) is an employee of an armored car company and has a permit issued under Title 5, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article; or
(6) lawfully owns a regulated firearm.

Comar:

29.03.01.27. 27 Handgun Qualification License ― Eligibility.. A. Exemptions. A person is not required to possess a Handgun Qualification License to purchase a handgun if the person satisfies one of the exceptions set forth in Regulation .26B of this chapter.B. Qualifications. In accordance with Public Safety Article, §5-117.1(d) Annotated Code of Maryland, a person is eligible for issuance of a Handgun Qualification License only if the person:1) Is 21 years old or older;.

dblas · Aug 25, 2015

Streetgang said:
Incorrect. It specifically states before OCT 1, 2013
From the MSP website:

Sorry shipmate, the MSP website is completely and utterly wrong on that issue.

dblas · Aug 25, 2015

swinokur said:
I tend not to rely on FAQS alone for accurate info. They can sometimes have errors or omissions. The MSP FAQ is a perfect example. The person who wrote it forgot about out of state C&R purchases or it was omitted to keep folks from thinking about it. But it's perfectly legal according to the statute. A couple of MDS members have done this to get a training exempt HQL.

I am guessing the folks who wrote FSA 2013 either did not know about out of state C&R purchases or forgot about it.

either way we win.

When del Smigeil offered the amendment on C&R handguns, there weren't that many questions on the issue. I think most folks thought they were talking about antiques.

swinokur · Aug 25, 2015

all the better for us.

llkoolkeg · Aug 25, 2015

A1Uniform said:
No HQL required, but you do still have to complete a Form 77 for in-state purchases of C&R handguns. That is where the silly MD laws step in and ruin your C&R fun.

Buy from out of state, you can have it shipped right to your door, no fuss, no muss.

Bravo!

One more reason to get a C&R- you deprive greedy politicians the extra tax revenue and flip them the bird with out-of-state C&R pistol purchases!

dblas · Aug 25, 2015

swinokur said:
all the better for us.

A pity they would allow C&R exemption for the copy cay rules..... :envy:

Lou45 · Aug 25, 2015

6pack said:
I thought in Maryland you still needed an HQL; you could only buy C&R pistols without an HQL if you purchased outside of Maryland. And that the magazine limits still applied as a modern pistol.

Bertfish said:
No, C&R pistols are exempt from the HQL inside of state lines. You do not need a C&R or HQL to purchase them but do need to fill out the 77R and wait 7 days. I believe there is a specific line on the 77R which the seller fills out which states such.

You can purchase C&R pistols across state lines without an HQL or a transfer provided you have a C&R license. If you don't then it must be transfer through a Maryland FFL as usual.

echo6mike said:
Ditto to 6pack - I'm pretty sure the HQL requirement overrides C&R on in-state transactions. And the magazine restrictions are definitely there whether a handgun is C&R or not.

IANAL, etc., but check this carefully before you go shopping.

swinokur said:
Last item in the HQL exemption list on the 77r. Still have to fill it oiut for in state purchases even with a C&R.
.
.

A1Uniform said:
No HQL required, but you do still have to complete a Form 77 for in-state purchases of C&R handguns. That is where the silly MD laws step in and ruin your C&R fun.

Buy from out of state, you can have it shipped right to your door, no fuss, no muss.

Basically 6pack and echo6mike were straightened out by Bertfish and others. Bertfish had it right from the get go. :thumbsup:

C&R vs. HQL

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