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Old May 5th, 2010, 05:57 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega View Post
I'm assuming this Trust could be used for any future NFA items?

I want to SBR my carbine now, but might possible want to aquire a surpressor sometime in the future.
Just trying to figure out if the 600 beans is a one-time deal.
Yes, it can be used for any future NFA devices, just have to add each item to your Trust assignment page.

Believe me the $600 is worth it, and Doug Warfel will answer your questions and help if you need it without additional counsel fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega View Post
Good information, but I have to ask...
What is the purpose of the bank account?
When you pay for the NFA devices and pay the BAATFE the $200 Tax you have to pay from the Trust. You cant pay yourself. SO having a "Maga NFA Trust" nbank account allows you to pay for the items correctly. If you dont want the headache then get postal money orders and out "Mega NFA Trust" or whatever you neme the Trust as the "payee".
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Old May 6th, 2010, 07:51 AM #22
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Originally Posted by clandestine View Post
Believe me the $600 is worth it, and Doug Warfel will answer your questions and help if you need it without additional counsel fees.

Pardon my ignorance but why is a trust better than filing form 4 under your personal name? the only advantage i have herd about is time. I'm just trying to understand the benefit of paying $600 additional.

Thanks
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:04 AM #23
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Originally Posted by Spyderdiver View Post
Pardon my ignorance but why is a trust better than filing form 4 under your personal name? the only advantage i have herd about is time. I'm just trying to understand the benefit of paying $600 additional.

Thanks
Under a Trust my Wife and Children can use the NFA Devices if they are listed. Listing yourself on the Form 4 will only allow you to have posession of the NFA Devices.

Under a Trust, if I die, then there is no Transfer Tax for the NFA Devices since the Trust Owns them and the Wife and Children are already listed.

Of course theres a reduced wait time (2 Months), no need to deal with the MSP, no need to get Fingerprints or a Passport Photo.

There is also some legal representation you are paying for with the $600. They will do minor ammendments, and consel you if you have needs/questions. Some people use Willmaker or use some other persons Trust Template. I refuse to listen to someones legal advice who is not an estate planner or is counsel.

Having the standard Form 1 or 4 is not good for me since I want my Wife and Children to be able to use them if Im away.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:31 AM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega View Post
I'm assuming this Trust could be used for any future NFA items?

I want to SBR my carbine now, but might possible want to aquire a surpressor sometime in the future.
Just trying to figure out if the 600 beans is a one-time deal.
Yes. You can use the trust for any/all NFA items you have now or plan to attain the future. Not a one-shot deal. It is meant to survive the life-span of your ownership of all the weapons. Adding an items is a no-brainer. Basically you need to track things on your end.

The bank account is used to make purchases and to cover expenses for items in the trust. It is not strictly used by all, but it does provide more legal separation for you and the trust. Technically you should not be using your own account for the trust.

You can add pre-owned items to the trust. Many do not even set up a trust until they have made their first NFA purchase and need to send in paperwork on something sitting in the dealer's safe.

In this case you can contribute personal items (or cash) to the trust. Most lawyers will draft a letter that you can attach to the trust stating that you have contributed items of $xx value to the trust, or similar.

There is some talk of a technical NFA violation if you use a personal Credit Card for purchasing items for the trust. I cannot remember all the details, but nobody seems to have heard of anyone getting trouble for it.

Ironically, the ATF asks you to send in a an inventory sheet with your application showing you have the item in your collection . As the sharp-eyed among us have noted (as have the lawyers), this is also a technical violation because you do not yet have it in your collection. That's what the application is for.

Stuff like this is what makes NFA a pain to learn. Ultimately it helps to have someone show you the ropes the first time, and then you are good to go from there.

The $600 is worth it.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:39 AM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clandestine View Post
Under a Trust my Wife and Children can use the NFA Devices if they are listed. Listing yourself on the Form 4 will only allow you to have posession of the NFA Devices.

Under a Trust, if I die, then there is no Transfer Tax for the NFA Devices since the Trust Owns them and the Wife and Children are already listed.

Having the standard Form 1 or 4 is not good for me since I want my Wife and Children to be able to use them if Im away.
Humm very interesting, so if I'm away my wife can not touch the suppressors or SBR's under a form 4 even if they are in the house? lets say self defensive purposes.

If I already have items on a form 4 can I create a single Trust to put them under with out having to repay the Tax?
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Old May 6th, 2010, 04:54 PM #26
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Originally Posted by Spyderdiver View Post
Humm very interesting, so if I'm away my wife can not touch the suppressors or SBR's under a form 4 even if they are in the house? lets say self defensive purposes.
She could be prosecuted for possession. In fact, she cannot even have "ready access" to them, which means she cannot legally have the combo to the safe. Try telling the wife she cannot have the combo the your secret safe and see how that flies.

Quote:
If I already have items on a form 4 can I create a single Trust to put them under with out having to repay the Tax?
If you already own items with approved Form 4s, you will pay a tax for every item you transfer to a new owner. The trust is a new owner, so you will pay.

If you already have some under a trust, keep it and transfer them all into it (for $200 a pop). If they are all individually owned, you will pay a tax for each transfer.

Keep in mind that a trust is very much the owner, not you. You can control the trust, and even transfer items out of it (plus tax), but the guns are no longer yours (in technical terms).

But one advantage here is that the wife and child can be co-trustees. This does not mean your 12-year-old kid can wander the streets with an SBR, but your lawyer will go over why your kid being a trustee could be a good idea.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 05:43 PM #27
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Guys, I used Doug and cant complain at all. What a great guy! He was very helpful with the process. I just got mine from Doug this week and will be heading to the shop to finish my paperwork and submit it to the ATF. The only step i am lacking is my trust bank account. I hope i dont run into problems as i have already paid for the supressor before i opened the trust bank account.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 06:10 PM #28
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Just make a contribution to the trust from yourself. Trusts do not magically become endowed with assets -- they come from someone first. For instance, that bank account you open in the trust name will get funded from you. Every time you fund the account, you need to notate the "contribution" to the trust, and the "acceptance" of the contribution. You can do this on one page in a few words.

So just like cash, if you have an item you want to contribute, it'll work the same way.

Best case of how this works: you want to SBR your existing AR-15. First you contribute the rifle to the trust, then the trust requests the SBR approval through the ATF.

One of the issues with "contributing" an existing NFA item into a trust is the "chicken and egg". You already paid for the silencer as an individual and can contribute it to the trust. But how can you contribute something you do not yet have?

So far the rule seems to be as long as you do not take possession (it is in dealer stock) and you make the contribution before the trust does the Form 4, you are fine. Just like when the ATF asks you to prove the item is in your trust's asset pool before they authorize the trust to take possession. Chicken meet Egg.

So far it seems to come down to actual possession. As long as you do not have it, it can be assigned without remorse. But people rightly note that if the ATF wanted to, they could make this harder to accomplish. Or (tinfoil hat), retroactively go back and invalidate the contributions.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 06:22 PM #29
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Thanks Patrick... thats kind of what i was thinking too.. I like the chicken and the egg comment! What a perfect anology!

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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:07 PM #30
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Good responses Patrick.
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