Remove trail cams on your property, get raided by DNR

Qbeam said:

Nope, not at all justifying the actions. Pointing out that the story is not quite what it seems. If the state allows it, as it was inferred in the article, they could put the game cameras on private property without permission (seems odd to me that they can do it) per the SCOTUS ruling. On a federal level, no warrant needed for open property. Some states have prohibited per the article.

As for having backup when you go a calling, I am sure law enforcement folks would want backup when they go out on certain calls.

It is showing how the government is able to use certain laws to get around others.

The situation was messed up to begin with. He admitted to wrong doing after the fact, but as for the response, I wasn't there for the back story. For all we know, it could have been that the neighbor complained, DNR could set up cameras due to the law allowing them, and cameras went missing. Where it went from there would be speculation on my part as to why they needed that many people to find missing cameras.


Q

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Yup. Depending on the state's laws, he could be good or not.

The vast majority of states' laws though, if the property was unmarked, he would be in the clear on theft as it can be considered abandoned property.

If it WAS marked in a manner that would be somewhat obvious (IE he wouldn't need to completely disassemble the thing) and it said something like "US Gov't property" or "Department of Natural Resource Property", etc. Then he would have a duty to report to authorities he found their property.

It was based on STATE law, but Indiana I think it was, he a had case terribly different from this.

Placed a GPS tracker on a suspected meth dealers car. He discovered it and took the car and tracker to a shop, the shop told him what it was, he removed it and kept it. State tried to charge him with theft of government property. State supreme court threw it out as the tracker was not marked government property and he had every right to keep it or throw it away as abandoned property. Doesn't matter that the state actually got a warrant to place it (shockingly, they bothered going through the extremely low bar of getting a warrant).

IE a sensible ruling. Gov't can't charge you with theft if their stuff is on your property and they don't make it obvious it is the government's property. That GPS tracker could have been put there by a rival drug dealer. Or it could have been put there by an ex. Or by a neighbor. Or a rando stalker.

Just because it might be the government's doesn't mean that the property owner has a responsibility to see if it is the governments.

Now some states have abandoned property laws that require items above a certain value to be reported to police within a certain amount of time of discovering it. So you could run afoul of that, but I still doubt that the state could nail you on theft of GOVERNMENT property at that point, but a violation of abandoned property laws, which is likely WAY more minor crime.

Anyway, total power trip with this kind of stuff.

I'll withhold my thoughts on things like open field doctrine, but a person shouldn't be charged with a crime for something a reasonable person would not know is a crime. Also overzealous government official should be liable in such cases and the sovereign immunity doctrine needs completely changing.

I agree that in the NORMAL COURSE of a government employees job, they should not be able to be held liable. But the standards are way to high on overturning that immunity if asserted and it needs to be an affirmative defense on the part of the employee. Now the gov't absolutely needs to represent the employee in the matter at least until such time as their affirmative defense is ruled invalid.

JDH146 said:

Also from the article.
Ironically, the announced entry and search of Hollingsworth’s home required a warrant; the secret entry and hidden search of Hollingsworth’s private land required no warrant. The distinction is a capsule version of the Open Fields doctrine.

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Yes you are exactly correct. I am just wondering why the camera was placed on his property in the first place. The DNR apparently had some information and not just say so from someone. They had reason to believe illegal activity or poaching was happening. They wont just do this because they think something is happening. The thing he did wrong is remove the camera. Touching and taking their camera is a big no no. He should have taped the lens or called the DNR and demanded the camera removed and an explanation. What part of Tennessee was this anyhow?

mauser58 said:

Yes you are exactly correct. I am just wondering why the camera was placed on his property in the first place. The DNR apparently had some information and not just say so from someone. They had reason to believe illegal activity or poaching was happening. They wont just do this because they think something is happening. The thing he did wrong is remove the camera. Touching and taking their camera is a big no no. He should have taped the lens or called the DNR and demanded the camera removed and an explanation. What part of Tennessee was this anyhow?

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The cameras weren’t labeled who owned them

And if they had probable cause as you say they could have gotten a warrant

mauser58 said:

Yes you are exactly correct. I am just wondering why the camera was placed on his property in the first place. The DNR apparently had some information and not just say so from someone. They had reason to believe illegal activity or poaching was happening. They wont just do this because they think something is happening. The thing he did wrong is remove the camera. Touching and taking their camera is a big no no. He should have taped the lens or called the DNR and demanded the camera removed and an explanation. What part of Tennessee was this anyhow?

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This was posted in another thread or I read it on a gun forum on FB (probably the latter since the dupe police didn't show up).

The open fields act (or whatever) allows them free reign on your property outside of your curtilage (house and fenced yard). So, even though it's ********, they are allowed to put cameras all over your "wild" property and there's not a damn thing you can really do about it.

In this case, the guy in question admits his misdeed a few years prior to this event and states (of course, his word only as the DNR wouldn't comment) that he's been clean since. He surmised that his prior incident put/kept him on their radar so they watched him. The article I read stated it was a lucky coincidence of time of day that caught sunlight glinting off the game cam so he noticed it. He had no idea how long they were there.

And for for the record that ******** “open fields” doctrine was decided in 1988. So it’s not some long standing doctrine.

It’s about as constitutional as all the patriot acts warrant less searches (electronic ans physical)

Yet another example of the type of behavior one sees when a government has completely overstepped it's constitutional mandate.

Interesting case. Open fields might be ripe for a SCOTUS review with consideration about today's technology, similar to United States v. Jones, 565 U.S. 400 (2012) and Carpenter v. United States, No. 16-402, 585 U.S. ____ (2018). Any savvy lawyers out there with a good argument?

FoxSlayer said:

The cameras weren’t labeled who owned them

And if they had probable cause as you say they could have gotten a warrant

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Well if there was no engraving, sticker, or marking on them then shame on the DNR. I would have removed them also. At least took the SD Card from them.

FoxSlayer said:

The cameras weren’t labeled who owned them

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How does our dearly departed know this?

The hunting violation itself sounds bs. It had to so w how many days after a field was cut did he bird hunt it. Also the tn dnr is apparently a bad actor w a lot of internal issues and ethics prob. Think gun trace task force only with the bambi police.

I wonder what they would have done if it was at a field edge and he went through with a flail mower or something. They probably would have wanted him to pay for it or something.

“Hollingsworth was hit with hunting violations related to dove baiting”
Dig deeper and even this charge appears to be bs. He hunted his fields after the required days cut and the bambi fashion police disagreed as there was too much spoil left in the field. Again. Dream is over. We are in roof vote mode now.

does sound pretty crazy. if they were not marked, I would have taken the cameras down myself. never knew police had full right to place these on your property at will

It would be a shame if someone was poaching, and missed with a 7.62 round from a couple hundred yards and that round hit the cam.

FoxSlayer said:

Your supposed to put them on another vehicle.




Anyone remember when the bomb squad was called because sbr put trackers on boats and the owners though they were bombs ?

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Leading up to my divorce, a device might have fallen off my Jeep, and landed on the chassis of a trailer at the Jessup truck stop. Not sure though.

It is simple see something say something, I would reported to the local Sheriffs Office as tress passing. Let the Sheriffs or State Police remove them. Sometimes people just need to think before they do something that could result in getting them in trouble. Also, take lots of pictures to protect yourself. Many of the trail cameras used by LE are cell type and send the pictures directly to a phone of computer when activated. Yes it is your property, and no one should be placing cameras on it however, COs in just about every state can go on your property with out permission to investigate any wrong doing. They always have had that capability so if you are stupid you get stupid justice.

Find it. Leave it attached. Cut down your tree on your property.

Done.

More to the story, property owners are taking the state TWRA to court over the "Open Field Doctrine". The link is to a pretty long article about Hollingsworth and his neighbor

https://ij.org/case/tennessee-open-fields/

Solution: Take down the camera. Assuming it's not marked, call local law enforcement and tell them, "Someone trespassed on my property and put up this camera. It must be poachers. I'm turning it over to you."

If the camera IS marked: Send it back to the agency. Have someone video you packing it up and dropping it off at the post office. Put a note in the box that states, "I found this on my property. It appears to be the property of your agency. Please contact me by mail if you have any questions." Send it Return Receipt Requested. Keep the receipt handy, just in case.

ralph.mclean said:

Solution: Take down the camera. Assuming it's not marked, call local law enforcement and tell them, "Someone trespassed on my property and put up this camera. It must be poachers. I'm turning it over to you."

If the camera IS marked: Send it back to the agency. Have someone video you packing it up and dropping it off at the post office. Put a note in the box that states, "I found this on my property. It appears to be the property of your agency. Please contact me by mail if you have any questions." Send it Return Receipt Requested. Keep the receipt handy, just in case.

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I'm not familiar with trail cams. I probably would have mistakenly thought it was a bomb and called it in.