CCW on private property with no weapons posted

anthem4arequiem · Dec 11, 2012

When it comes to private property of course the property owner has final say if firearms are permitted or not. Reading the laws for many states it sounds like if you are to carry onto property and the owner says no guns, then you have to leave or you are guilty of trespassing. This is important because it is not a firearms violation AND you are only guilty of a crime if you don’t leave.

When it comes to VA I am somewhat confused. The VA CCW Law states

O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.

So my question is, if you carry in a restaurant or theater in VA that says no firearms, are you not guilty of a crime just by entering or like other states only if you refuse to leave? To me it sounds like the above was written in there as to not usurp the rights of the property owner and you would only be guilty of a crime by not leaving when asked. The confusing part though is that it IS part of the CCW law. :sad20:

ProShooter · Dec 11, 2012

anthem4arequiem said:
So my question is, if you carry in a restaurant or theater in VA that says no firearms, are you not guilty of a crime just by entering or like other states only if you refuse to leave?

You would be guilty of trespassing as soon as you ignored the sign and entered the property. Va. doesn't have a specific sign statute, but the trespassing statute considers the sign as a condition of entry, i.e no shirt, no shoes, no service.

18.2-308 O is considered by some attorneys I have consulted with to mean that your permit is not valid on that private property, thus meaning that you are illegally carrying a concealed handgun, a class 1 misdemeanor.

vafish · Dec 12, 2012

ProShooter said:
You would be guilty of trespassing as soon as you ignored the sign and entered the property. Va. doesn't have a specific sign statute, but the trespassing statute considers the sign as a condition of entry, i.e no shirt, no shoes, no service.

18.2-308 O is considered by some attorneys I have consulted with to mean that your permit is not valid on that private property, thus meaning that you are illegally carrying a concealed handgun, a class 1 misdemeanor.

I've had 2 different criminal defense attorneys tell me that the way they interpret the section of code the OP quoted is that your CHP is not valid if the private property owner prohibits concealed carry on their property and that it is possible you could be charged with a concealed carry violation under 18.2-308.

But they could not find a single instance where that has actually happened.

anthem4arequiem · Dec 13, 2012

ProShooter said:
18.2-308 O is considered by some attorneys I have consulted with to mean that your permit is not valid on that private property, thus meaning that you are illegally carrying a concealed handgun, a class 1 misdemeanor.

That is what I was looking for. Trespassing and violating a gun law are two very different things.

vafish said:
But they could not find a single instance where that has actually happened.

Also good to know!

The reason I asked is someone I know carries every time we go into a theater in VA. Several times we have gone in and out of that theater never noticing a sign that says no firearms on the front door. The sign is a 8 ½” X 11” sticker with size 5 font. Half way down there was a no firearms picture (a gun with the red circle and slash) and associated text saying no firearms or concealed weapons permitted. The total no CCW section was about half an inch tall and 1.5 in wide. The only reason we saw it at all was because we were standing out of the way of normal traffic waiting on someone. So in the end we were wondering what crime he was violating.

swinokur · Dec 13, 2012

I go to the movies in NOVA frequently. I am always carrying. I have walked past Alexandria LEO's in the lobby on several occasions. Since the signs have no force of law, I've made the personal decision my life is more important. It's easy to leave if asked to,

My .02 YMMV

gamer_jim · Dec 13, 2012

So are you really violating the law when you walk in? Or when your asked to leave and you don't?

damosan · Dec 13, 2012

swinokur said:
Since the signs have no force of law, ...

I understand your stance but I believe you are wrong here.

D.

swinokur · Dec 13, 2012

Incorrect. See VA § 18.2-308. The only violation is not leaving when asked. The same as walking into a restaurant with no shoes when shoes are required by signage and then leaving when asked. No law broken.

IANAL

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.1

swinokur · Dec 13, 2012

gamer_jim said:
So are you really violating the law when you walk in? Or when your asked to leave and you don't?

That's the point. There is NO violation of VA LAW by ignoring the sign. That's the point of the thread..

Not leaving when told to leave is then a VA trespass violation.

IANAL

See VA § 18.2-308

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.1

swinokur · Dec 13, 2012

I made the decision that my safety is more important than an as yet unheard of prosecution especially if I comply with an order to leave the premises, which of course I would do.

anthem4arequiem · Dec 13, 2012

swinokur said:
cite? The only violation is not leaving when asked. The same as walking into a restaurant with no shoes when shoes are required by signage and then leaving when asked. No law broken.

IANAL

What is your reasoning for believing that in the state of VA? That is how I interpret the law (or maybe how I want to interpret it), but the law is ambiguous enough that it COULD be read both ways. My original reason for posting is to ask how it has been enforced in the past. So if you have any logic or examples of the sign holding no law, I would love to hear about it.

K31 · Dec 13, 2012

anthem4arequiem said:
When it comes to private property of course the property owner has final say if firearms are permitted or not.

See, I told you guys, only in Virginia are you safe.

swinokur · Dec 13, 2012

I amended my post read the statute. IANAL but I have not heard of a prosecution for a handgun violation if asked to leave private property when posted.

It seems to be a personal; decision.

Blaster229 · Dec 13, 2012

Love the people who want to be test cases.

Sent from my phone from somewhere in the world.

swinokur · Dec 13, 2012

I don't think anyone wishes to be a test case. I weighed the pro's and cons and made a decision based on what the law seems to say and the possibility of a prosecution if I leave when asked. Seems minimal TO ME. Others will make their own decisions obviously.

Simple as that.

IANAL

vector03 · Dec 13, 2012

anthem4arequiem said:
The reason I asked is someone I know carries every time we go into a theater in VA. Several times we have gone in and out of that theater never noticing a sign that says no firearms on the front door. The sign is a 8 ½” X 11” sticker with size 5 font. Half way down there was a no firearms picture (a gun with the red circle and slash) and associated text saying no firearms or concealed weapons permitted. The total no CCW section was about half an inch tall and 1.5 in wide. The only reason we saw it at all was because we were standing out of the way of normal traffic waiting on someone. So in the end we were wondering what crime he was violating.

It would be interesting to know if that sign was there prior to the Aurora shooting.

swinokur · Dec 13, 2012

I know the signs at Potomac Yards and the theaters on Eisenhower Ave have been there from Day 1.

anthem4arequiem · Dec 13, 2012

vector03 said:
It would be interesting to know if that sign was there prior to the Aurora shooting.

I should have said we have seen the sign there, but never noticed the firearms part. The majority of the sign talks about handicapped access, devices for the hearing impaired and other stuff like that. So I am guessing it was there since the theater was built a few years ago.

Of note, it was said that the theater for the Aurora shooting was chosen not because its size or proximity (because it was not the biggest or closest theater to the shooter’s house) but because it was the closest theater that had big “no weapons” signs, and they were proud of them.

swinokur · Dec 13, 2012

Can I ask which theater? I frequent many in Arlington/Alexandria area. Nice to know in advance.

anthem4arequiem · Dec 13, 2012

swinokur said:
Can I ask which theater? I frequent many in Arlington/Alexandria area. Nice to know in advance.

Fox theater in Brambleton

CCW on private property with no weapons posted

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