PERMIT APPLICATION RETURNED

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  • esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Fixed that for you. ;)

    That's funny. Things may get out of hand pretty quickly for the state when they start denying en masse all these Board appeals because the MSP refused to process the application for G&S reasons. I wonder if the Board even knows or has a plan for how it is going to treat these appeals. It will be interesting to see what they do. They gotta know that we are watching.
     

    X-Factor

    I don't say please
    Jun 2, 2009
    5,244
    Calvert County
    That's funny. Things may get out of hand pretty quickly for the state when they start denying en masse all these Board appeals because the MSP refused to process the application for G&S reasons. I wonder if the Board even knows or has a plan for how it is going to treat these appeals. It will be interesting to see what they do. They gotta know that we are watching.

    If they are denied by the board because of a lack of G&S because of application after the stay, that's one thing. If they deny because of a lack of G&S from application post-Wollard pre-stay that's a problem. The big issue I see is if they deny a board hearing because there is no application for them to review because MSP sent it back and didn't process it (sir, there's nothing on file....you must have an application with a decision for us to review....). If anyone gets on that board they should argue the lack of due process, correct?
     

    gsrcrxsi

    Active Member
    Jan 15, 2012
    176
    Baltimore, MD
    If they deny because of a lack of G&S from application post-Wollard pre-stay that's a problem.

    from what ive gathered so far, the stay ill apply to ALL applications regardless of when they were submitted. They can deny any application they want right now because they have the stay and can (and should according to law) apply G&S to all applications.
     

    Patrick

    MSI Executive Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    7,725
    Calvert County
    That's funny. Things may get out of hand pretty quickly for the state when they start denying en masse all these Board appeals because the MSP refused to process the application for G&S reasons. I wonder if the Board even knows or has a plan for how it is going to treat these appeals. It will be interesting to see what they do. They gotta know that we are watching.

    I think we are going to see a firewall develop between us and the review board. That is why this is occurring.

    Just theory right now. We'll know soon.
     

    Patrick

    MSI Executive Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    7,725
    Calvert County
    If they are denied by the board because of a lack of G&S because of application after the stay, that's one thing. If they deny because of a lack of G&S from application post-Wollard pre-stay that's a problem. The big issue I see is if they deny a board hearing because there is no application for them to review because MSP sent it back and didn't process it (sir, there's nothing on file....you must have an application with a decision for us to review....). If anyone gets on that board they should argue the lack of due process, correct?

    We got at least one confirmed case of a pre-stay application being sent back, though with the original check uncashed. We have not been able to confirm (yet) a case of the state issuing a refund.

    The pre-stay app that was returned arrived one day before the stay went into effect. It may be an outlier. Hopefully we can talk to a few more people soon.
     

    MJD438

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 28, 2012
    5,849
    Somewhere in MD
    I think we are going to see a firewall develop between us and the review board. That is why this is occurring.

    Just theory right now. We'll know soon.

    Any "firewall" would be extra-legal from a context perspective, since the whole process is defined in law and code, right?
     

    yellowsled

    Retired C&R Addict
    Jun 22, 2009
    9,348
    Palm Beach, Fl
    We got at least one confirmed case of a pre-stay application being sent back, though with the original check uncashed. We have not been able to confirm (yet) a case of the state issuing a refund.

    The pre-stay app that was returned arrived one day before the stay went into effect. It may be an outlier. Hopefully we can talk to a few more people soon.

    thanks for the clarification. :thumbsup:
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    from what ive gathered so far, the stay ill apply to ALL applications regardless of when they were submitted. They can deny any application they want right now because they have the stay and can (and should according to law) apply G&S to all applications.

    That's correct, the stay applies to all apps, post and pre stay. Read the order (stays the March 5 order as amended by the clarification). What is a problem here is that the MSP is refusing to even process the application but returning it on G&S grounds. That's a denial. So, there should be appeal rights from that denial under 5-312.

    If the stay is still in place at the time of its decision, the Board can certainly deny the appeal on G&S grounds. You have judicial review at that point, either under the state statute, or under 42 U.S.C. 1983 in federal district court on a 2A claim, ala Woollard.

    If, on the other hand, the Board refused to even hear your appeal on the fiction that you were not really denied, then we have a slightly different kettle of stinky fish. At that point, you would have appeal rights to state court under the state statute on the state law question of whether the MSP non-denial was really a denial or whether the MSP was obligated to fully process your application before denying it, or you would have the federal 2A claim in federal court. You will have, at that point, exhausted your administrative remedies.

    If the stay is lifted at the time of the Board decision, then the injunction is in place and effective and the Board must reverse the MSP's denial on G&S grounds and order it to process the application under the remaining part of Section 5-306, including 5(i) and the other qualification criteria set out in the statute. Since, on the returned apps, the MSP has not processed the application, the Board will not order issuance of the permit, only that the MSP process it without regard to G&S. Similarly, if the app is still before the MSP at the time the stay is lifted, then the MSP has to process without regard to G&S.
     

    Patrick

    MSI Executive Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    7,725
    Calvert County
    Any "firewall" would be extra-legal from a context perspective, since the whole process is defined in law and code, right?

    Pretty much.

    I'll borrow words from esqappellate: desperation. They got it.

    Our assumption that they could just sit on these was wrong. We cannot divine a public reason that they would feel the need to do this, so that leaves non-public reasons we are not aware of.

    In short, we see no downside risk for the state if they just hold apps until a court decides one way or the other, but plenty of downside in them denying them before even submitting their first request to make the stay permanent.

    Logical actors do logical things, even if we do not know the reasons. Something we do not understand is creating a heavier "balance" to the downside-risk they created here.
     

    DoesItGoBang

    Member
    Feb 17, 2011
    5
    Got my Postal return receipt of my appeal to the Handgun Permit Review Board of my post stay Non-processed denial.

    I want to see what the board does after the stay is lifted....

    A) reject due to no information from MSP because they didn't do their job as required by law => Sue MSP

    B) reject due to they just want it that way. => Sue board members due to using G&S as only reason given for rejection and not following ruling by Legg.

    C) Grant permit based on information reviewed (application and FBI background check) => Equal protection claim for anyone needing any additional information to get permit. The permit standard just got redefined!

    All ways looking for the silver lining.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Pretty much.

    I'll borrow words from esqappellate: desperation. They got it.

    Our assumption that they could just sit on these was wrong. We cannot divine a public reason that they would feel the need to do this, so that leaves non-public reasons we are not aware of.

    In short, we see no downside risk for the state if they just hold apps until a court decides one way or the other, but plenty of downside in them denying them before even submitting their first request to make the stay permanent.

    Logical actors do logical things, even if we do not know the reasons. Something we do not understand is creating a heavier "balance" to the downside-risk they created here.

    The only thing that remotely makes sense is that the State is desperate to deter and get rid of as many pending apps as possible. The number of applications filed immediately after the ruling must be in the 1000s. Must be a bit overwhelming to the MSP not accustomed to such a volume. Returning the apps means they don't have to devote resources (manpower) to processing them with interviews and the like. That saves money (I doubt that the $75 even begins to cover the true cost in manpower it takes to process). Returning the apps also deters more applications, as they are counting (correctly) on this new return policy becoming widely known. Saves more money and it keeps evil guns out of the hands of the State's subjects (sorry, citizens).

    Maybe that is just it, viz., that they have really NOT thought through how it affects their pending stay motion. OR, Maybe they figure they will lose the stay motion anyhow so returning the apps now *might* just have a plus factor (in their minds) of discouraging reapplication or new apps. OR, Maybe they think they will win the Stay and the appeal for sure and thus this is the cheapest way to go about issuing denials. OR, Maybe they are just clueless. Notice that they don't list Board review as an option in the form letter, so they probably don't think it will impact the Board (no one will take a 5-312 appeal), or, if it does, that is the Board's problem, not the MSP's problem (separate budgets).
     

    Patrick

    MSI Executive Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    7,725
    Calvert County
    The only thing that remotely makes sense is that the State is desperate to deter and get rid of as many pending apps as possible. The number of applications filed immediately after the ruling must be in the 1000s. Must be a bit overwhelming to the MSP not accustomed to such a volume. Returning the apps means they don't have to devote resources (manpower) to processing them with interviews and the like. That saves money (I doubt that the $75 even begins to cover the true cost in manpower it takes to process). Returning the apps also deters more applications, as they are counting (correctly) on this new return policy becoming widely known. Saves more money and it keeps evil guns out of the hands of the State's subjects (sorry, citizens).

    Maybe that is just it, viz., that they have really NOT thought through how it affects their pending stay motion. OR, Maybe they figure they will lose the stay motion anyhow so returning the apps now *might* just have a plus factor (in their minds) of discouraging reapplication or new apps. OR, Maybe they think they will win the Stay and the appeal for sure and thus this is the cheapest way to go about issuing denials. OR, Maybe they are just clueless. Notice that they don't list Board review as an option in the form letter, so they probably don't think it will impact the Board (no one will take a 5-312 appeal), or, if it does, that is the Board's problem, not the MSP's problem (separate budgets).

    This is most likely, but I like my version better. :D

    The only way this works is if they have internally handicapped the stay - one way or the other - so much that they figure their actions here do not have the downside I assign them in my head.

    Go figure - they don't think like I do. :rolleyes:
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    I want to see what the board does after the stay is lifted....

    A) reject due to no information from MSP because they didn't do their job as required by law => Sue MSP

    B) reject due to they just want it that way. => Sue board members due to using G&S as only reason given for rejection and not following ruling by Legg.

    C) Grant permit based on information reviewed (application and FBI background check) => Equal protection claim for anyone needing any additional information to get permit. The permit standard just got redefined!

    All ways looking for the silver lining.

    They will comply and either 1. award the permit if the app had been otherwise fully processed by the MSP and denied only on G&S grounds, or 2. on the returned apps, order the MSP to process without regard to G&S. Pretty much anything else would be contempt and these guys are not going to risk that.
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,947
    Marylandstan
    They will comply and either 1. award the permit if the app had been otherwise fully processed by the MSP and denied only on G&S grounds, or 2. on the returned apps, order the MSP to process without regard to G&S. Pretty much anything else would be contempt and these guys are not going to risk that.

    Really!? So with 'contempt', who is actually held accountable?
    And what is or what maybe the penalty for contempt?
    Seems like to me alot of public officials are NOT held accoutable!
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    This is most likely, but I like my version better. :D

    The only way this works is if they have internally handicapped the stay - one way or the other - so much that they figure their actions here do not have the downside I assign them in my head.

    Go figure - they don't think like I do. :rolleyes:

    I expect that they may have been drinking their own Kool-Aid. It happens in litigation. A lot. We must be careful not to do so on our part.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Really!? So with 'contempt', who is actually held accountable?
    And what is or what maybe the penalty for contempt?
    Seems like to me alot of public officials are NOT held accoutable!

    Well, when Judge Legg orders the State to bring these officials to the courtroom to explain their behavior, you can be sure that they don't want to face that. Nobody does. No state official will purposefully go into contempt of a federal court order. This is not Alabama in the 60s.
     

    BUFF7MM

    ☠Buff➐㎣☠
    Mar 4, 2009
    13,576
    Garrett County
    I don't quite understand a temporary stay. Is the temporary stay just put in effect till the 4th rules on the case and then lifted or does the 4th have a temporary stay that they put into play too.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    I don't quite understand a temporary stay. Is the temporary stay just put in effect till the 4th rules on the case and then lifted or does the 4th have a temporary stay that they put into play too.

    until Judge Legg rules on the state's motion for a perm. stay pending appeal. The state has to ask the district court first. If the district court denies a stay, then they can ask the court of appeals for a stay pending appeal.
     

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