Awesome answer to b.s. question "why someone needs ar-15"

clandestine · Mar 2, 2018

Jim12 said:
If anti's think the military and civilian versions are identical "assault weapons," designed only to kill as many people as possible in as short a time as possible, isn't it useful to point out the differences between the two, to educate them and set them straight?

Point out where my statements are wrong or misleading. I'm simply telling the truth, and I'm not doing my PRO 2A position a dis-service. Nor did the man in the O.P. with his AR15 statement. He is correct. The U.S. Military adopted the AR15. Same ones that civilians could buy until they were banned in Select Fire configuration in 1986.

After 1986 and over many years, many things were changed or added to Semi Auto AR15's to make the conversion from semi auto variant to select fire more difficult.

There were:

4 types of Semi Auto Bolt Carriers
2 Types of Lower Receiver Sear Blocks
Various Lowers with Various Rear Pocket Cuts
3 Types Hammers
2 Types of Firing Pins
Oversize Upper/Lower Pivot Pin Bores
Oversize Hammer/Trigger Bores in Lower
2 Types of Disconnects
2 Types of Triggers

TexDefender · Mar 3, 2018

Jim12 said:
If anti's think the military and civilian versions are identical "assault weapons," designed only to kill as many people as possible in as short a time as possible, isn't it useful to point out the differences between the two, to educate them and set them straight?

It might be if the person was willing to learn. But if they have an agenda or axe to grind, you are more likely to just be fueling the anti-gun fire. The left will run with it hard and fast. Additionally, the rifle was first introduced in 1963, there has been may changes to the military version and the civilian version since then. So today they are not the same rifle.

clandestine · Mar 3, 2018

TexDefender said:
This is the design difference, therefore if the lower of one has it and the other does not, they cannot be consider to be the same.

I think you like to argue to entertain yourself.

No, it's not a design difference. It's a parts difference.

There are current semi auto lowers with deep and wide pocket shelves that are ready to accept a RDIAS. Legal to own.

Select Fire Parts drop in if you own a RDIAS.

The man in the O.P.'s video makes an excellent point that stands on it's merits. The Military adopted an AR15 and civilians should have that same capability. Just as those who fought in the Revolutionary War had arms to match the Kings Military.

If you concede that we shouldn't have the same small arms as the Military, then you have lost the entire point of the 2A.

clandestine · Mar 3, 2018

TexDefender said:
It might be if the person was willing to learn. But if they have an agenda or axe to grind, you are more likely to just be fueling the anti-gun fire. The left will run with it hard and fast. Additionally, the rifle was first introduced in 1963, there has been may changes to the military version and the civilian version since then. So today they are not the same rifle.

I can squish an antis argument over the ARs technical merits. I do it every day on social media and in person. After I make them look like ignorant idiots, they waddle off or go silent when they realize they picked a technical fight with the wrong guy.

Do you know what I do?

Jim12 · Mar 3, 2018

clandestine said:
Point out where my statements are wrong or misleading. I'm simply telling the truth, and I'm not doing my PRO 2A position a dis-service. Nor did the man in the O.P. with his AR15 statement. He is correct. The U.S. Military adopted the AR15. Same ones that civilians could buy until they were banned in Select Fire configuration in 1986.

After 1986 and over many years, many things were changed or added to Semi Auto AR15's to make the conversion from semi auto variant to select fire more difficult.

There were:

4 types of Semi Auto Bolt Carriers
2 Types of Lower Receiver Sear Blocks
Various Lowers with Various Rear Pocket Cuts
3 Types Hammers
2 Types of Firing Pins
Oversize Upper/Lower Pivot Pin Bores
Oversize Hammer/Trigger Bores in Lower
2 Types of Disconnects
2 Types of Triggers

I guess some people would think that the select fire is a critical distinction between the two, and material to how they are perceived. In fact, many anti's and those less knowledgeable blur or fail to acknowledge the distinction.

Is the civilian version, as configured for semi automatic and incapable of select fire, a "weapon of war" that was designed and exists "solely to kill as many people in as short a time as possible" like we frequently hear from those who want it banned? I don't think so.

jrumann59 · Mar 3, 2018

Arguing the difference between M16 AND AR15 with Chad you lose. A more apt comparison is the difference between a v6 challenger and a hellcat challenger. You can convert the v6 to hellcat but will require some work. My comparison leaves legalities out.

TexDefender · Mar 3, 2018

I know what I'm talking about as well, I served in the military for over 21 years. Doesn't make my argument any less relevant that yours. The design comes first then the parts. We are all supposed be on the same side.

clandestine · Mar 3, 2018

TexDefender said:
I know what I'm talking about as well, I served in the military for over 21 years. Doesn't make my argument any less relevant that yours. The design comes first then the parts. We are all supposed be on the same side.

Im certain we are not on the same side. It's been clear in several threads. I think you like it that way. If I recall you also think an AR is a poor choice for Home Defense as well. If you concede Civilians shouldn't be legally able to own "weapons of war" that is another thing we disagree about.

Was your MOS related to being an Armorer?

I have over 10k AR's that have crossed my bench. Most Title I, but countless we're Title II. 15 Years as Gunsmith and I teach technical AR Armorer and Build Classes as well.

Military Service means does not give one technical knowledge in regards to the AR. I have taught countless service members. They didn't know what they didn't know. Does that mean they were poor Service Members? Nope, it means they were not in a position to gain and exercise my narrow area of expertise.

clandestine · Mar 3, 2018

jrumann59 said:
Arguing the difference between M16 AND AR15 with Chad you lose.

They fail to realize that their behavior is exactly like antigunners. They think they know what they don't know.

fidelity · Mar 3, 2018

I appreciate the clarification regarding 3-round burst mode. Not only is Chad's argument about the AR-15 being the genesis of the military's M-16 and then M-4 rifles factually correct, but the functional difference isn't one, as a gun buyer, something that I would be greatly disappointed about. I might not get burst mode, but if I wanted (at least under current laws), I could put in an Echo trigger if I wanted something with a similar effect. All things being perfect, I of course would want the uninfringed version.

Chad, appreciate the clarification about parts differences when it comes to burst mode vs select fire. It makes sense that the burst mode change relative the original AR-15/M-16 is more substantial.

I do think the guy in the video puts forward a usable, common sense response to a biased question that comes from a statist mindset. Why should government pay for the healthcare of some able-bodied individuals? Why should government mandate working able-bodied folks to buy into specific health markets? Make them defend statist policies. Finish with if we empower the government to possess firearms (because we do), why should I permit the government to restrict what I have? Make them defend giving more and more power to the state and show to others they don't care about individual liberties.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Drakos · Mar 3, 2018

Jim12 said:
Very effective, and correct about "need" vs. "want."

This should be incorporated into people's testimony before the MGA, and our commie politicians should be confronted with his arguments about "need" vs. "want."

Spot on!

"...each according to his needs!" -Karl Marx

clandestine · Mar 3, 2018

fidelity said:
I appreciate the clarification regarding 3-round burst mode. Not only is Chad's argument about the AR-15 being the genesis of the military's M-16 and then M-4 rifles factually correct, but the functional difference isn't one, as a gun buyer, something that I would be greatly disappointed about. I might not get burst mode, but if I wanted (at least under current laws), I could put in an Echo trigger if I wanted something with a similar effect. All things being perfect, I of course would want the uninfringed version.

Chad, appreciate the clarification about parts differences when it comes to burst mode vs select fire. It makes sense that the burst mode change relative the original AR-15/M-16 is more substantial.

I do think the guy in the video puts forward a usable, common sense response to a biased question that comes from a statist mindset. Why should government pay for the healthcare of some able-bodied individuals? Why should government mandate working able-bodied folks to buy into specific health markets? Make them defend statist policies. Finish with if we empower the government to possess firearms (because we do), why should I permit the government to restrict what I have? Make them defend giving more and more power to the state and show to others they don't care about individual liberties.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Thank you Fidelity.

TexasBob · Mar 3, 2018

AR-15 the Modern Sporting Rifles (MSRs) – often incorrectly referred to as ‘assault rifles’

I so glad we have an active member like Chad that can provide Expert options on AR's and keep the facts straight, Internet got so many armchair quarterback muddying the waters.

Thanks Chad :thumbsup:

eurocarnut · Mar 3, 2018

No expert would say that a semi-automatic rifle is identical to a select-fire assault rifle. A lot of AR15s you buy today don't even come with the sear shelf milled out or a full auto bolt carrier. All of the ones I own have those features but thats besides the point. The military uses very specific rifles not AR-15 variants made by *insert 100000 companies here*.

There are thousands of gun "experts" out there. We see them on CNN every day talking about firing a weapon on "full semi-auto." I have no doubt you know how to build and repair AR's but you can't call the AR-15 in your average gun owners safe the same thing as an M4A1 in our service's arsenal.

I suppose you'd also say the M14 is the same as an M1A?

clandestine · Mar 3, 2018

TexasBob said:
AR-15 the Modern Sporting Rifles (MSRs) – often incorrectly referred to as ‘assault rifles’

I so glad we have an active member like Chad that can provide Expert options on AR's and keep the facts straight, Internet got so many armchair quarterback muddying the waters.

Thanks Chad

Thank you for seeing it that way my friend.

I wish all Americans understood the true meaning of the Second Amendment. They can't argue their support effectively if they believe or spread incorrect information.

clandestine · Mar 3, 2018

secretsquirrel35 said:
No expert would say that a semi-automatic rifle is identical to a select-fire assault rifle. A lot of AR15s you buy today don't even come with the sear shelf milled out or a full auto bolt carrier. All of the ones I own have those features but thats besides the point. The military uses very specific rifles not AR-15 variants made by *insert 100000 companies here*.

There are thousands of gun "experts" out there. We see them on CNN every day talking about firing a weapon on "full semi-auto." I have no doubt you know how to build and repair AR's but you can't call the AR-15 in your average gun owners safe the same thing as an M4A1 in our service's arsenal.

I suppose you'd also say the M14 is the same as an M1A?

This is funny. I listed my credentials. I can point out and detect flaws from some of the most respected AR manufacturers with my tools and gauges. Ones that some manufacturers seem to not know exist or fail to employ them.

What are your credentials? We're you a military Armorer? How many AR's have YOU worked on? Ever work on an M16? Have sear timing gauges? Ever need to fit a RDIAS or time one in an AR Lower? A year ago you were asking about how to color fill an AR Lower.

Your comment about the sear shelf and bolt carrier shows you don't know what you think you know. No AR currently made prevents the use of an M16 carrier. Colt installed elevated sear blocks but stopped a decade ago and just add webbing in the lower.

Yes there are AR lowers that are made to accept DIAS and Auto Sears. I'm not going to post them here but they are legal and available.

I'm not an M14 technical expert. So I won't opine on them. I can rebuild and service them but I do not have the tools and gauges nor the extensive experience with them to claim I'm an expert in that field.

Are all civilian AR's equal to the M4A1 in regards to quality? Nope, but I can list all of the AR15 parts (I won't do it openly) that would build one that would exceed the performance of the current issued M4A1 and it includes all of the happy switch parts as well. The only difference would be wether the person buys a RDIAS, or goes beyond that into non legal methods.

Jim12 · Mar 3, 2018

Nobody in their right mind (me, anyway, speaking for myself) is or would dare to argue with Chad about the genesis, history, parts, function, operation, etc. of the AR15. But that's not the point that I've been addressing. The point is that there is a distinction between today's civilian version and the military version. If I'm wrong about that or what follows, please correct me.

The anti's lump the civilian and military versions together and want them all treated as an indistinguishable, monolithic group of "assault weapons" and "weapons of war," "made only for killing masses of people," etc. We've heard it all. It's they, not us, who don't recognize the mechanical and functional distinctions, even though some in the 2A community call them "assault rifles," rather than "modern sporting rifle."

We, on the other hand, want to keep them, and one line of argument is to emphasize both: 1) the distinctions between today's civilian vs. military version (e.g. semi-automatic vs. automatic); and 2) the many positive, useful purposes the civilian version serves in the hands of civilians (e.g. defense, shooting sports, hunting, and the reason why the 2A was adopted, despite being under-gunned compared to the military version).

Pointing out that the civilian version is only semi-automatic vs. the military's automatic version addresses the anti's arguments that it's the military's weapon of war and the same thing used by the military.

I'm here to learn about this, so if I'm wrong, I'd like to know where and how.

Jim12 · Mar 3, 2018

delete dupe.

eurocarnut · Mar 3, 2018

I'm an extremely logical and straightforward person and this isn't confusing. 1≠1.01. Unless 1=1, they're not the same.

I didn't say anything about preventing the use of a FA BCG. I said a lot of companies, especially the lower end models, don't use a FA BCG. I'm well aware of the certain receivers that come with the sear pin hole engraved or dimpled though I don't think colt has made them in a long, long time.

DCSCO · Mar 3, 2018

Great video. Helps keep the reasoning fresh.

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Awesome answer to b.s. question "why someone needs ar-15"

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