Test Case for Bump Stock Fails

bigmancrisler · Nov 18, 2020

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...ck-prosecution-under-Trump-edict-15734194.php

TLDR:
Huston prosecutors drop case against man for having a bump stock in his possession because retired ATF firearms expert would have said it doesn’t make a semi auto firearm a machine gun.

“But Rick Vasquez, a retired ATF agent and firearms expert, would have told the court the bump stock did not meet the statutory definition of a machine gun. The prosecution dismissed case, he said, because the government couldn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt the bump stock was a machine gun.”

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ironpony · Nov 18, 2020

The D MO has been to:
1) Ban an item
2) confiscate/destroy/remove as many as possible
3) Let citizens pay attorneys fees
4) Just say "whoops"

Their next step and I believe they are thinking this way, change the constitution. They are seeing their ATF rule changing is failing so ....

I Could Be Wrong.

bigmancrisler · Nov 18, 2020

ironpony said:
The D MO has been to:
1) Ban an item
2) confiscate/destroy/remove as many as possible
3) Let citizens pay attorneys fees
4) Just say "whoops"

Their next step and I believe they are thinking this way, change the constitution. They are seeing their ATF rule changing is failing so ....

I Could Be Wrong.

I know it probably isn’t going to go anywhere but I saw that there was a bill introduced like a year or two ago that was to disband the ATF. I would absolutely love to see that happen but I doubt it will. But there is always hope.

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bigmancrisler · Nov 18, 2020

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Uncle Duke · Nov 18, 2020

ironpony said:
The D MO has been to:
1) Ban an item
2) confiscate/destroy/remove as many as possible
3) Let citizens pay attorneys fees
4) Just say "whoops"

Their next step and I believe they are thinking this way, change the constitution. They are seeing their ATF rule changing is failing so ....

I Could Be Wrong.

You're not wrong. They also know that citizens are paying the attorney fees on BOTH sides of the issue. And they couldn't care less, given zero skin in the game.

What a racket.

TheBert · Nov 18, 2020

Too often we run away from the fight to retain our rights. This proves that when you stand up to the man you have the opportunity to present your case and win, i.e. get the man to back down. It is not always easy protecting the chipping away of our rights but, it is a necessary fight.

bigmancrisler · Nov 18, 2020

TheBert said:
Too often we run away from the fight to retain our rights. This proves that when you stand up to the man you have the opportunity to present your case and win, i.e. get the man to back down. It is not always easy protecting the chipping away of our rights but, it is a necessary fight.

This

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Boards01 · Nov 18, 2020

ATF should be dissolved.

Nickberg500 · Nov 18, 2020

This is why someone needs to form a militia armed with bumpstocks. 3D printer go brrrr. Make the bumpstocks the property of the militia as a group to make prosecution focused away from the individual. Only when people stand together will change happen.

shootin the breeze · Nov 18, 2020

Boards01 said:
ATF should be dissolved.

The ATF should be a drive through

Allen65 · Nov 18, 2020

Boards01 said:
ATF should be dissolved.

Unless the law changes, their responsibilities would just be handed to another Federal LE org. NFA wouldn't go away.

Badger1 · Nov 18, 2020

ironpony said:
The D MO has been to:
1) Ban an item
2) confiscate/destroy/remove as many as possible
3) Let citizens pay attorneys fees
4) Just say "whoops"

Their next step and I believe they are thinking this way, change the constitution. They are seeing their ATF rule changing is failing so ....

I Could Be Wrong.

I also suspect they will try to use the "common use for lawful purposes" from Heller / McDonald. IE, if they can ban something early, or for long enough, then it won't be in common use.

I know those decision are mostly good, but Scalia bent over backwards to avoid overruling NFA/FOPA. And in so doing, he gave the grabbers a strategy to ban anything by acting early to prevent it from reaching the "in common use" threshold.

Muleskinner · Nov 18, 2020

ironpony said:
The D MO has been to:
1) Ban an item
2) confiscate/destroy/remove as many as possible
3) Let citizens pay attorneys fees
4) Just say "whoops"

Their next step and I believe they are thinking this way, change the constitution. They are seeing their ATF rule changing is failing so ....

I Could Be Wrong.

this is their MO for ALL gun control...they simply pass so many gun control laws that it is financially impossible for all of the challenges so the laws stand..

What we really need is a constitutional amendment that requires any bill at any level of government that potentially violates any of the first 10 amendments to be ruled constitutional BEFORE it can be passed as law. Americans are innocent until proven guilty, bills should be proven to be constitutional before becoming law...

outrider58 · Nov 18, 2020

I don't know about "standing up for our rights", so called. The guy was trying to stay out of jail, which by the way, is probably where he belongs. Or maybe a mental institution. The guy sounds like a nut.

Boats · Nov 18, 2020

bigmancrisler said:
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looks good to me. what's the catch?

Bullfrog · Nov 18, 2020

Nickberg500 said:
This is why someone needs to form a militia armed with bumpstocks. 3D printer go brrrr. Make the bumpstocks the property of the militia as a group to make prosecution focused away from the individual. Only when people stand together will change happen.

A group of individuals acting together to plan and commit criminal acts.

RICO
Conspiracy charges.
Anti-gang statutes.

I am all for making stupid laws go away but that doesn't sound like the way to do it. IANAL.

Nickberg500 · Nov 18, 2020

Bullfrog said:
A group of individuals acting together to plan and commit criminal acts.

RICO

Conspiracy charges.

Anti-gang statutes.

I am all for making stupid laws go away but that doesn't sound like the way to do it. IANAL.

Compliance is the only reason we have the gun control we already have. Isn't the whole message of patriot picket "we will not comply"? Mass non-compliance is a valuable tool.

pcfixer · Nov 26, 2020

https://nclalegal.org/wp-content/up...estern-District-Austin-Div.-ruling-_FINAL.pdf

NCLA Will Appeal Trial Judge’s Flawed Ruling that Bump Stocks Are “Machineguns” to Fifth Circuit
Michael Cargill v. William Barr, et al.
Washington, DC (November 25, 2020) – The U.S. District Court for the Western District of Texas rendered a
decision on Tuesday in the case of Michael Cargill v. William Barr, et al., concluding that NCLA client
Michael Cargill of Austin, Texas is not entitled to legally possess a bump stock because bump stocks have
always been “machineguns” under federal law. NCLA is seeking to overturn the federal ban on bump stocks
issued Dec. 26, 2018 by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) and to halt its
enforcement, because NCLA believes federal agencies do not have the power to alter federal statutes. NCLA
believes that if the federal government wants to outlaw bump stocks, Congress has to do it.

NCLA released the following statement:
“The court’s decision rests on the dubious conclusion that bump stocks have always been prohibited, even
though ATF’s official stance for years was that these devices are not machineguns. No other court in the
country has accepted the government’s argument to that effect. We look forward to the Fifth Circuit Court of
Appeals swiftly reversing this decision.”
– Caleb Kruckenberg, NCLA Litigation Counsel

One of the most important principles in administrative law, The “Chevron Deference” is a term coined after a landmark case, Chevron U.S.A., Inc. v. Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc., 468 U.S. 837 (1984), referring to the doctrine of judicial deference given to administrative actions.

I think to either Chevron Deference or Marburg v Madison

Inigoes · Nov 3, 2023

New life to this case

https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/110323zr_5if6.pdf

Cert Granted @ SCOTUS

Bob A · Nov 8, 2023

Allen65 said:
Unless the law changes, their responsibilities would just be handed to another Federal LE org. NFA wouldn't go away.

SCOTUS could make it go away. Certainly big chunks of it, anyway.

Test Case for Bump Stock Fails

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