Damn. Correct.
Legality of Marble Arms Game Getter Model 1908
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somd_mustangs
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- Jul 1, 2012
- 5,733
Regardless it is specifically called out as NFA in ATF 5300.11
Well I just messaged my friend and he said it’s a smooth bore so he can take it out of the shadows and bring it to the range. Thanks to everyone. As usual you never let me down.
I didn’t catch that part of it was a shotgun. That makes is a SBS. Best advice is shhhhhh....I mean, call ATF.
benton0311
Active Member
- Feb 26, 2011
- 358
It’s laid out on on 8.5x11 sheets of paper. Barrel(s) are around 12” which is one of the factory lengths offered.
This is both an SBR and SBS. It might be possible to get it registered under NFA, transfer to dealer to then transfer back on Form 4 or something along those lines.
benton0311
Active Member
- Feb 26, 2011
- 358
I'm wondering if there's a way your friend could transfer this to an SOT who could then "sell" it back to him (or you, or a trust) on a Form 4 which would get it back into the system as a legally registered NFA item.
The other option would be to have a smith quickly tack weld extensions on to get the barrels to 18" (or 16" and 18") to meet barrel length requirements. Then it's a normal rifle and shotgun. Submit a Form 1 to manufacture as an SBR/SBS and then have the smith remove the extensions once the Form 1 is approved. The extensions don't need to be anything other than rods that extend the barrels out for length requirements so they could be fairly small and only blemish a small area if the smith is good enough.
The other option would be to have a smith quickly tack weld extensions on to get the barrels to 18" (or 16" and 18") to meet barrel length requirements. Then it's a normal rifle and shotgun. Submit a Form 1 to manufacture as an SBR/SBS and then have the smith remove the extensions once the Form 1 is approved. The extensions don't need to be anything other than rods that extend the barrels out for length requirements so they could be fairly small and only blemish a small area if the smith is good enough.
Did these originally have serial numbers?
When I was a kid I had an ld single shot 12 ga shotgun with no buttstock. I thought it would have been cool to whittle a pistolgrip for it and cut that barrel down with a hacksaw to about 10". I'm glad I didn't do it now! (but at 15 it seemed like a great idea!)
He sent me more photos and I didn’t see any serial numbers on the name plate receiver. However if they were required to be registered with ATF you would think it has to have a serial number.
benton0311
Active Member
- Feb 26, 2011
- 358
They were manufactured before NFA and not grandfathered in when NFA was passed. From what I remember reading, the NFA effectively killed the model line because the whole selling point was having an ultra-compact hunting arm. Once they had to be rifle length there was no reason for someone to buy an awkward rifle with flimsy stock and the firearm was discontinued.
They were manufactured before serial numbers were required and, since one wasn't added, it's questionable as to whether or not this was ever registered. It wouldn't have been required if registered prior to GCA 1968 so maybe it was registered sometime in the 1930's but kind of think it would have been added later on in a successive Form 4 transfer.
That would make sense that it was never registered, people bought these and it's not like there was TV or internet to let people know about the new law that was going to require them to register a firearm they bought 10 years prior. I'll bet there are probably a few hundred of these floating around the US owned unsuspecting people who found them in grandpa's attic.
I have a Handi-Gun, originally. 410, that someone re barreled to .22 Hornet, so it is still legal. Probably saved it from destruction.
somd_mustangs
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- Jul 1, 2012
- 5,733
BTW these should have serial numbers based on the gouge on the interwebs.
It sucked because the shop had a tag on it for $450 or something crazy like that... it was gorgeous. But alas, no bueno. I don't think ATF is doing this anymore but another route would be to petition to get this specific gun exempted and placed in "Section III" of the C&R list, or to get the whole class exempt. It really is silly that they are NFA.
benton0311
Active Member
- Feb 26, 2011
- 358
I think I figured out a clean way to do it:
Separate the barrels from the receiver. You take the barrels with you and your friend keeps the receiver and stock at his place. The receiver by itself isn’t NFA, it’s the short barrels attached that make it NFA so the unassembled receiver is totally fine. Then they’re in 2 separate locations so there are no constructive possession issues. Friend submits Form 1 to manufacture, pays tax stamp; and then reassembles once Form 1 approved. He will need to have a new serial and place of “manufacture” engraved somewhere but could be done in an inconspicuous spot. This would be clean, easy, and no permanent alterations to the gun sans engraving.
Separate the barrels from the receiver. You take the barrels with you and your friend keeps the receiver and stock at his place. The receiver by itself isn’t NFA, it’s the short barrels attached that make it NFA so the unassembled receiver is totally fine. Then they’re in 2 separate locations so there are no constructive possession issues. Friend submits Form 1 to manufacture, pays tax stamp; and then reassembles once Form 1 approved. He will need to have a new serial and place of “manufacture” engraved somewhere but could be done in an inconspicuous spot. This would be clean, easy, and no permanent alterations to the gun sans engraving.
somd_mustangs
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- Jul 1, 2012
- 5,733
If it has a serial number why would you need to engrave a new one?
It already has the manufacturer info on the sideplate.
But is this approach even possible?
I think some further investigation is required, perhaps not on a public forum
It already has the manufacturer info on the sideplate.
But is this approach even possible?
I think some further investigation is required, perhaps not on a public forum
The 30" OAL rule is not relevant as that only applies to centerfire semiauto rifles. Game Getters w/ barrels less than 18", such as yours, are neither a pistol, rifle, shotgun, SBR nor an SBS, but rather an Any Other Weapons (AOW) and transfer with a $5 vs. $200 tax (NFA items transferring through an estate usually transfer tax free through a form 5). NFA items that meet the C&R test can still transfer directly to an 03FFL. NFA items turn up in attics more often than you would think and there is no need to be sneaky when contacting the ATF to determine if the item was ever on the registry. They won't come looking for you. If it was then it can be transfered to the new owner. If it was not, my experience is that it must permanently made inoperable according to Tech branch instructions or surrendered. I think I've heard that it can be transfered to a museum but that may have involved a demil in the process. However, my experience in this circumstance is with machine guns, which can't be transfered to individuals after 1986; I'm not sure what the decision is for an AOW since you could build a new one from scratch with an ATF Form 1 (tax for that is $200, if you know an FFL with 07SOT; NFA manufacturer, they could make it for free and transfer it for $5, which is what I did for a Savage 24). Regardless, if your friend wants to follow the law he should call NFA branch at the ATF; they're nice, just overworked. If it needs to be surrendered/destroyed, I would strip it down for the parts and only turn in the receiver; every part, especially the stock, on that has some value. If you want a second opinion, repost on the NFA/Class III forum &/or find an 07SOT, I go to Engage Armament. good luck... to your friend...
Found the NFA handbook:
9.5.3.3 Uncertainty about the registration status of decedents’ firearmsIn some cases, an
executor or administrator of an estate may be uncertain whether the decedent’s firearms are
registered to the decedent in the NFRTR. Perhaps the executor or administrator is unable to
locate the decedent’s registration documents. As discussed in Section 9.2, if the decedent’s
firearms are not registered to him/her in the NFRTR, the firearms are contraband and may not be
lawfully possessed or transferred. If the executor or administrator cannot locate the decedent’s
registration documents, he/she should contact the NFA Branch in writing and inquire about the
firearms’ registration status. This inquiry should be accompanied by documents showing the
executor’s or administrator’s authority under State law to represent the decedent and dispose of
the decedent’s firearms. Although ATF is generally prohibited from disclosing tax information,
including the identity of persons to whom NFA firearms are registered, ATF may disclose such
information to persons lawfully representing registrants of NFA firearms.
9.5.3.4 Unregistered estate firearms. Should an estate contain NFA firearms not registered to
the decedent, these firearms are contraband that may not be lawfully possessed or transferred.
Where these are found within an estate, the executor or administrator should contact his/her local
ATF office and arrange for their disposal.
9.5.3.3 Uncertainty about the registration status of decedents’ firearmsIn some cases, an
executor or administrator of an estate may be uncertain whether the decedent’s firearms are
registered to the decedent in the NFRTR. Perhaps the executor or administrator is unable to
locate the decedent’s registration documents. As discussed in Section 9.2, if the decedent’s
firearms are not registered to him/her in the NFRTR, the firearms are contraband and may not be
lawfully possessed or transferred. If the executor or administrator cannot locate the decedent’s
registration documents, he/she should contact the NFA Branch in writing and inquire about the
firearms’ registration status. This inquiry should be accompanied by documents showing the
executor’s or administrator’s authority under State law to represent the decedent and dispose of
the decedent’s firearms. Although ATF is generally prohibited from disclosing tax information,
including the identity of persons to whom NFA firearms are registered, ATF may disclose such
information to persons lawfully representing registrants of NFA firearms.
9.5.3.4 Unregistered estate firearms. Should an estate contain NFA firearms not registered to
the decedent, these firearms are contraband that may not be lawfully possessed or transferred.
Where these are found within an estate, the executor or administrator should contact his/her local
ATF office and arrange for their disposal.
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