Traveling by air, explain again, nice and slow

gamer_jim · Aug 10, 2014

No MD permit but I have UT and ME non-resident.

Traveling soon to state of Washington with a lay-over in Colorado. Am I ok transporting? I plan on notifying the airline per their rules (declared unloaded and locked).

I remember reading about some guys getting screwed in NY over a layover because they didn't have their NY permit. Any chance of me running into that in CO?

Thanks in advance.

El Patron Grande · Aug 10, 2014

El Patron Grande says:

Start here - http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information/firearms-and-ammunition

El Patron Grande only takes weapons via ground vehicles.

yellowfin · Aug 10, 2014

So long as you're not in NY or NJ you're good. Not even California is anywhere near the nazis that those two states are. Some guidelines I go by that have served me well in the last 7 or so years flying with my guns:

1. Have them field stripped so the person behind the counter even if they know nothing will not be afraid of them and can clearly tell they're not loaded. Pistols and AR's are particularly handy because they look completely unintimidating when apart.

2. Dress nicely, preferably suit and tie. It just signals to people they're dealing with a smarter and cleaner kind of person than...well...shall I say someone dressed the way that would cause you concern if they came up to you at a gas station at night. Again, you have a gun, they don't know you, and you can't count on them knowing very much.

3. Have combo locks with the combination written down in something that will not be separated from you. Carry spares also that you have the combos to. Key locks...well...let's just say one time I forgot the key. That day SUCKED.

4. Ammo in factory packaging or nice reloader boxes and ACCOUNT FOR EVERY SINGLE ROUND. Few boxes as possible.

5. When at your destination, separate your carry on bags from your checked bags, like not on the same side of the room. You DO NOT want stray parts, rounds, mags, etc. falling into your carry on or put there by you when you're up in the early AM.

You're better off not finding out in person the result of not following this advice.

6. Ask for the orange tags at the check in kiosk before they get to it---i.e. know what you're doing ahead of time and be confident about it.

Rack&Roll · Aug 10, 2014

put "tips for flying with a gun" into the search box on the homepage here….best thread on this.

Also search "airline firearms" here and you'll see plenty.

The key is to travel with luggage that has internal bars or struts that you can lock your gun case to--to prevent the gun case from being taken from inside your luggage by the luggage rats. And don't use key locks. Remember you have the absolute right to be the only person with access to your locked gun case and with a combo lock from ACE hardware etc, you never have to worry about losing or forgetting the key.

ryan_j · Aug 11, 2014

I fly out of NJ with them but I'm a resident and have a FID. That said last time I flew out of PA. Flying out of NYC is always risky as they call PAPD every time.

Combo locks are OK but you might find yourself giving your combo to the TSA. I have key locks and a couple of spares. I keep the main keys on my key chain and spare keys in my wallet.

I use a pelican 1510 and put my stuff in there with the guns. This way I can lock the whole case. I don't like zippered suitcases because they are easily opened by thieves.

The gun case should be one that can't be easily pulled apart. Something like a gun vault micro vault is decent. I use a MV500.

Firearms need to be unloaded but also check airline policy. Ammo is subject to weight limits on most airlines, usually 11lbs. For the gun a cable lock thru the action makes things better during screening but is not necessary. At the very least keep the action open because a closed action is more likely to say "loaded" and prompt TSA to open the bag. Print out the airline regs and TSA regs and keep them with you just in case you need to remind people politely of the policy.

Declare to the airline at checkin. Ask for the firearms declaration tag. Don't go up and yell "I got a gun!!!" Don't use the skycaps. Keep your luggage under your control at all times.

After checkin some airports will escort you to a TSA area with your luggage for screening in front of you (eg DFW) while some will send the bags for screening on the belt and make you wait (eg ABE). Either way wait until you get the all clear. Once you get it you can go to security and the gates.

Enjoy your flight.

PS there were one or two airlines who didn't allow firearms but I think they all do now. The major ones anyway. I fly mostly Delta, American and United and have no problems.

ryan_j · Aug 11, 2014

gamer_jim said:
I remember reading about some guys getting screwed in NY over a layover because they didn't have their NY permit. Any chance of me running into that in CO?

Thanks in advance.

It won't happen in CO. Possession without a permit is not really a problem in CO. You can even open carry without a permit there.

If you get diverted to NY or NJ, that can happen. In that case, don't take your luggage. Explain to the airline that you cannot legally take possession of your luggage because it has a firearm. They'll hold it for you and put it on your rebooked flight. They might even lodge it with the police for safekeeping.

The case you're talking about was a fellow by the name of Greg Revell who was flying to Allentown, PA from Utah. He was diverted to Newark and then put on a bus to Allentown (it's a common practice with that airport). He decided to get off the bus and spend a night in a hotel in NJ and fly out to Allentown the next morning. When he checked his luggage and declared his firearm, they called the police and arrested him.

JFK is probably worse. There are numerous incidents of tourists checking firearms at JFK and LGA airport and getting arrested. Some of these people are celebrities. The standard procedure at JFK and LGA is to call the police every time someone attempts to check a firearm. Possession of a firearm in NYC is illegal without a permit. They usually are released after a few days but it's enough trouble for most people to avoid NYC airports like the plague. I'm unsure of what happens at other NY State airports (eg. Islip, Westchester, Stewart) but the same law applies. The 3rd circuit has upheld that FOPA doesn't protect transport through an airport terminal on foot.

Klunatic · Aug 11, 2014

How long is your layover? Really doesn't matter if your traveling through an airport (even NY or NJ). As long as you don't take possession of your luggage and stop for an extend period in these states FOPA protects you.

No need to disassemble your firearm. Just make sure it is unloaded and in a locked case in your checked bag. You can store the ammo in the same case as long as it isn't in the firearm. Ammo may not be loose and has to be packed in a factory container or other suitable container. Declare the firearm and ammo when you check your bag. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926A

If you get waylaid before reaching your final destination (say in NJ or NYC) do not take possession of your bag. Make arrangements for airline to send to your bag to your final destination.

swinokur · Aug 11, 2014

Here is TSA (DOJ) policy on FOPA protection while on air travel. And contrary to what you might hear, use locks on your gun case that only you have access to.(combo or key) Not on your luggage. TSA locks don't qualify as everyone at an airport has them (baggage handlers too)

Lock the gun case with your locks. TSA locks are ok on the actual luggage. As noted, Revell ran into problems with the NJ and NY Port Authority. Other states are not as aggressive in trying to enforce their local laws on travelers. That's what FOPA is supposedly for.

I used to fly a lot, but avoid NY and NJ like the plague.

Headed to Vegas next month with my HK45 to take my CCW renewal class.

fivepointstar · Aug 11, 2014

we should just make this a "sticky"

I've never traveled with my firearms but I always wonder

swinokur · Aug 11, 2014

Here's a great thread on airline travel with firearms including pictures. it's very comprehensive and informative IMO.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1202384

gamer_jim · Aug 11, 2014

swinokur said:
Here's a great thread on airline travel with firearms including pictures. it's very comprehensive and informative IMO.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1202384

This is very good. Thanks.

Stoveman · Aug 11, 2014

Good advice given above. I will second the no need to field strip or travel in a suit. I have traveled with multiple firearms many times and not once in a suit....

Most of the agents deal with this all the time and it's really no big deal.

Southwest and US Air are very gun friendly. I have also flown on Continental when they existed and American with zero issues, just had agents that didn't quite know the process. I had to actually ask for the orange card to fill out.

Heard nothing but horror stories about United but YMMV....

swinokur · Aug 11, 2014

You heard horror stories? Not my experience at all.

Most of my flying with a firearm has been on United through Dulles. never had a single issue anywhere. Couple trips out of DCA too. BWI once on SW.

YMMV of course.

ryan_j · Aug 11, 2014

Stoveman said:
Heard nothing but horror stories about United but YMMV....

I have never had problems with United. Even when flying out of Newark (but I wouldn't recommend EWR for out of state travelers).

kenpo333 · Aug 11, 2014

Really not that bad if you do your research and follow the guidelines. I do it all the time.

ryan_j · Aug 11, 2014

swinokur said:
Here's a great thread on airline travel with firearms including pictures. it's very comprehensive and informative IMO.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1202384

I deviate from that advice a bit. I lock the entire case with real padlocks because I have a firearm in it. It's one of the perks of flying with a checked firearm.

swinokur · Aug 11, 2014

That only works if your gun case is also you luggage. I used to travel with Broadcast TV gear. I would put a firearm in my hard case so I could put my own locks on them If I put my locked gun case inside my luggage, the outside luggage is not a hard sided case that only I should have access to.

Some folks will disagree. Do what you think best.

ryan_j · Aug 11, 2014

swinokur said:
That only works if your gun case is also you luggage. I used to travel with Broadcast TV gear. I would put a firearm in my hard case so I could put my own locks on them If I put my locked gun case inside my luggage, the outside luggage is not a hard sided case that only I should have access to.

Some folks will disagree. Do what you think best.

I make my gun case my luggage. I put the gun in a case and put it inside my luggage. Never a problem.

swinokur · Aug 11, 2014

is the actual gun case locked? If it isn't my read would be the gun is in a case that can be pried open and is not locked. Pry open the luggage, easy access to the firearm if that case is not locked with a key only you have a key to.

Maybe we're splitting hairs. As I said, do what makes you feel comfortable. I put a mall locked case inside my luggage and then cable it to the handle tubes inside the suitcase.

If your luggage is a case that can't be pried open, then perhaps what you do is ok. If it's in a regular suitcase with your own locks and is in an unlocked gun case inside that luggage, I don't see that as a good or legal.

swinokur · Aug 11, 2014

A poster here said IIRC he puts his firearm in an unlocked case and then puts that in his luggage which he then affixes his locks to.

That doesn't sound kosher to me but YMMV.

Traveling by air, explain again, nice and slow

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