Could this be considered straw purchase?

rseymorejr · Jun 7, 2021

Don't do it.
This guy basically told you that he can't pass a background check.
So he asks you to send the gun in his wife's name to the FFL. Then the wife will go in and fill out the paperwork and the FFL won't know anything fishy is going on. So you, the buyer and his wife have entered into a conspiracy.
Either this is a setup by and anti-group or the ATF or he is a complete idiot.

Jim12 · Jun 7, 2021

What's wrong with asking buyer how long it will take for him to clear up the delay, and seeing what he says? He did commit to buy. If he stalls, does GB have an issue resolution policy for xactions where buyers are in breach for this or other reasons? Is there a BC contingency?

If prohibited or even unwilling people could win auctions on GB and tie up buyers' inventory without consequences, GB could go to h*ll in a hurry.

PowPow · Jun 7, 2021

outrider58 said:
Honestly, as soon as the guy says there may be a problem with his background check, I'm out the door!

My first thought as well! :outta her

Moonlighter · Jun 7, 2021

If the guy is prohibited you really need to terminate this transaction. Let's pretend for a second that he's prohibited due to a history of violence and you proceed to sell it to his wife. He later uses the firearm you sold "his wife" in the commission of his next bad deed. My guess is that you'll be doing interviews with the ATF and their research may include all email, texts, and potentially this thread.

"Trust your gut" is some of the best advice around.

I would feel really bad if a gun I sold was used to harm or kill someone. I would feel a million times worse if I felt suspicious enough of the buyer to feel out MDS.com for advice and then sold it anyway.

Best of luck to you with this one!

Boats · Jun 7, 2021

fred55 said:
I'd be concerned for a few reasons. Even if it's above board to ship to the FFL, what if neither the husband or wife passes the BC? The FFL is holding your firearm with no buyer. You'll probably have to have it returned to you. Like others have said I'd terminate the sale and look for a buyer that is not concerned about their BC. fred55

If that is the case, it is up to the buyer to consign the gun for sale through the FFL, without taking possession. The OP still keep his money. Again, that is between the buyer and the FFL and. is not the sellers problem

mpollan1 · Jun 7, 2021

3paul10 said:
Just a little prohibited? Is that like being just a little pregnant?

Nah, it's like being mostly peaceful.

Jim12 · Jun 7, 2021

Moonlighter said:
If the guy is prohibited you really need to terminate this transaction. Let's pretend for a second that he's prohibited due to a history of violence and you proceed to sell it to his wife. He later uses the firearm you sold "his wife" in the commission of his next bad deed. My guess is that you'll be doing interviews with the ATF and their research may include all email, texts, and potentially this thread.

"Trust your gut" is some of the best advice around.

I would feel really bad if a gun I sold was used to harm or kill someone. I would feel a million times worse if I felt suspicious enough of the buyer to feel out MDS.com for advice and then sold it anyway.

Best of luck to you with this one!

Yeah, most here have similar feelings if he's prohibited, but what if he's not prohibited and there was an erroneous entry in his record 10 years ago that needs to be fixed, and the guy is entirely innocent? Haven't there been threads here about stuff like that, with sympathizers offering helpful advice?

Is everybody supposed to immediately shun him without even asking, "why"?

boothdoc · Jun 7, 2021

I would ask him for his FFLs contact information and ask them how they would proceed.
Might be some error?

Give him an opportunity to address this in a legal fashion and if not then move on

mvee · Jun 7, 2021

The buyer is giving too much information. I think this is either a scam or study that an anti gun group will use to go after online transfers.

If the original buyer was really prohibited and wanted the gun, all he’d have to do is say that he bought the gun for his wife and ask you to put it in her name.

The fact that he said he was having background check issues makes me think that they are trying to make a study that says “online transfers are unsafe, 87 percent of people continued with a transfer knowing the buyer was prohibited”

What was the price of the gun, and how many bidders? I could see that if the price was modest, And it was a “gotcha” study, they might try to make the most of their budget. They also might be the only bidder paying a little more than going price to entice the seller to go thru with the sale.

traveller · Jun 7, 2021

Oh hell no.

TylerFirearms · Jun 7, 2021

Just my two cents, but the over-the-counter transaction is the responsibility of the dealer on the other end. Once they receive it, your done. You transferred to a licensed dealer. Who gets the gun is not your responsibility, nor your problem.

Chuck

Art3 · Jun 7, 2021

I've been watching and pondering this thread all day. At first, I was squarely in the "It's the FFL's problem" camp. The OP isn't responsible for or qualified to perform a background check. He's accepting money from a screen name and shipping to an FFL. I understand and respect the morality concerns of not wanting what used to be "my gun" doing something bad.

If this was an FTF long gun sale a year ago, I'd bail in a heartbeat. The MD legislature has "protected" us from that now.

However...the more I think about it, the more I would use "Sorry, dude, this sounds too much like a straw purchase" as a courteous way to bail...but I'd be bailing for different reasons. It just doesn't pass the sniff test. How would be buyer know he'd be delayed? (I guess there could be an acceptable answer, like he was just delayed buying another gun, but it was resolved and/or he's waiting for his U-PIN...or something) Why would he even say it to the seller, instead of waiting to deal with it at the FFL? I'd be suspicious that it was some kind of scam. I don't even know what kind of scam :shrug:

...but that's my concern...it just smells funny.

If you aren't 100% comfortable, don't do it. In this market, there are other buyers

And if the OP was 100% comfortable, he wouldn't have started this thread. :innocent0

sxs · Jun 7, 2021

rseymorejr said:
Don't do it.
This guy basically told you that he can't pass a background check.
So he asks you to send the gun in his wife's name to the FFL. Then the wife will go in and fill out the paperwork and the FFL won't know anything fishy is going on. So you, the buyer and his wife have entered into a conspiracy.
Either this is a setup by and anti-group or the ATF or he is a complete idiot.

Actually, he told him he may get be delayed...a very different issue. But I do agree it sounds kinda .sketchy

sxs · Jun 7, 2021

Art3 said:
I've been watching and pondering this thread all day. At first, I was squarely in the "It's the FFL's problem" camp. The OP isn't responsible for or qualified to perform a background check. He's accepting money from a screen name and shipping to an FFL. I understand and respect the morality concerns of not wanting what used to be "my gun" doing something bad.

If this was an FTF long gun sale a year ago, I'd bail in a heartbeat. The MD legislature has "protected" us from that now.

However...the more I think about it, the more I would use "Sorry, dude, this sounds too much like a straw purchase" as a courteous way to bail...but I'd be bailing for different reasons. It just doesn't pass the sniff test. How would be buyer know he'd be delayed? (I guess there could be an acceptable answer, like he was just delayed buying another gun, but it was resolved and/or he's waiting for his U-PIN...or something) Why would he even say it to the seller, instead of waiting to deal with it at the FFL? I'd be suspicious that it was some kind of scam. I don't even know what kind of scam ...but that's my concern...it just smells funny.

If you aren't 100% comfortable, don't do it. In this market, there are other buyers And if the OP was 100% comfortable, he wouldn't have started this thread.

I know dozens of people who will tell you they usually get delayed. They tell me right up front at the sale (I work PT at Scott's Gunsmithing). Some of them we know quite well. One good customer had an issue because his son had drug issues some years back and he has the same name. He applied for and got his ATF UPIN which is supposed to prevent unjust delays and denials... but he still gets a delay sometimes. People with clearances are also commonly delayed although not all of them. And the problem has gotten way worse with Covid and NICS examiners. Prior to Covid, many of these would get a "Further Review". Since a week or two into the pandemic all further reviews are automatic delays.

adit · Jun 7, 2021

sxs said:
Actually, he told him he may get be delayed...a very different issue. But I do agree it sounds lovely and of sketchy

Or maybe a prohibited guy with a similar name moved into the same area and he was delayed last week on another purchase because of it, and his applied for UPIN hasn't arrived yet.

They buyer never suggested that he was prohibited.

If you are worried about what someone might do afterwards with a firearm that you sold them, I suggest you never sell one.

The firearm is being shipped to a FFL.

It is the FFL's job to run the background check and weed out potential straw purchases. That work he does is what the "transfer fee" he charges covers.

BGOS is running a little wild here.

rseymorejr · Jun 7, 2021

sxs said:
Actually, he told him he may get be delayed...a very different issue. But I do agree it sounds kinda .sketchy

Maybe I read a little too much into that. I used to get delayed about half the time, got a UPIN and so far so good. I would usually tell the FFL that I got frequent delays and if they happened I'd ride it out for a couple days until it came through. Telling the FFL that I usually got delayed and asking to have my wife fill out paperwork would raise all kinds of red flags. I damn sure wouldn't tell a seller on Gunbroker all that. The entire situation sounds very odd

pre64hunter · Jun 7, 2021

Always questionable.

I believe somewhere in the law it says "know or should have known". Sounds like a setup. If the guy would have just kept his mouth shut and squared it with the FFL and you got a check, cash or money order from the wife you'd have been alright. But now you "know". Relist it and maybe his wife will buy it I guess or someone else.
I've bought guns online for my adult kids, brothers and friends. I have them shipped to an FFL and they do the paper work BUT we are all legal to buy and own guns. It can be questionable, am I doing a straw purchase finding a gun for a son or friend? Legally I can buy and sell to my children.
You have too much to loose, way too much and prisons are full of guys who thought they won't get caught.

sxs · Jun 7, 2021

rseymorejr said:
Maybe I read a little too much into that. I used to get delayed about half the time, got a UPIN and so far so good. I would usually tell the FFL that I got frequent delays and if they happened I'd ride it out for a couple days until it came through. Telling the FFL that I usually got delayed and asking to have my wife fill out paperwork would raise all kinds of red flags. I damn sure wouldn't tell a seller on Gunbroker all that. The entire situation sounds very odd

I agree it seems odd. On the other hand maybe he is just impatient.
Edit:. Or maybe he lives someplace like prarie dog land and has to drive 100 miles each way to his FFL

Blacksmith101 · Jun 8, 2021

Always remember for any gun you own if it is ever the subject of a ATF trace the path will lead to you. Does that mean you have a problem? It depends on the circumstances and as long as you can show you did what was "right" you shouldn't have a problem. There is a reason the government doesn't like "ghost guns", no number no trace via a paperwork trail and no one to squeeze.

Blaster229 · Jun 8, 2021

People assume that all FFLs are upstanding people.
What if this guy's FFL isn't that upstanding and goes through with the straw purchase? Something happens and you'll definitely be involved somehow.
Highly unlikely fantasy idea, but always possible.

BGOS lives matter

Would a gun manufacturer ship a pistol to a FFL if they knew the buyer's story?

Could this be considered straw purchase?

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