Ammo at Ho.Co. auction this eve (6/25)

Raineman · Jun 25, 2013

There is a bunch of ammo at the Howard Co. auction tonight (starting at 4PM). You can find links to the pictures here:

http://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/auctionview.cgi?lid=1801422&kwd=&zip=21784&category=0

Just figured I'd post this in case it might be of use to someone.

6pack · Jun 25, 2013

Thanks for the tip. I may go.

Squaregrouper · Jun 25, 2013

All MDS members should meet up so we don't bid against each other. I want shotgun ammo, but am doubtful I'll need any of the centerfire rifle ammo (only have .30-40 Krag, .303 Savage and 7.62x39).
I'll be there- I'm a 42yo, 6'4" white male with glasses. I'll be wearing a white T-shirt with "Asahi Valves" on it.
Please introduce yourselves so we don't compete. We should split the ammo bought.

6pack · Jun 25, 2013

If I go I'll look for you.

It's hard to tell from the picture what is up for sale. Can anyone make it out?

jtb81100 · Jun 25, 2013

Looks like mostly shotgun, some 30-30, 1 box of 8mm, what looks like .270 (kind of blurry so not sure), and that looks like a bucket of .22 in the first picture. Not sure on the rest even on my nice big monitor.

BlackBart · Jun 25, 2013

Good luck.... don't forget to add buyers premium & tax usually another 16 - 19% total. Also look it over..... many handloads often finds it's way in.

smdub · Jun 25, 2013

squaregrouper said:
All MDS members should meet up so we don't bid against each other.

Its near impossible to prove, but big rigging is a FELONY! Yes, if you and a friend are at an auction and you agree not to bid against one another, thats illegal. Just be aware! (at LEAST don't put anything in writing (forums/email/etc) and keep your voice down if discussing in public especially at the auction

)

SKIP · Jun 25, 2013

I went and saw and left. Lots of shot shells that I didn't look at.
1 enblock clip, loose 30-06 LC and RA 1950. 2 boxes of Federal 30-06, I box 8MM, 1 .30 carbine in 10 rnd clip, more 270 than anything.

Glad it's only a 5 minute drive.

BTW don't let the parking lot scare you for there is a Boy Scout function.

pbharvey · Jun 25, 2013

SKIP said:
I went and saw and left. Lots of shot shells that I didn't look at.
1 enblock clip, loose 30-06 LC and RA 1950. 2 boxes of Federal 30-06, I box 8MM, 1 .30 carbine in 10 rnd clip, more 270 than anything.

Glad it's only a 5 minute drive.

BTW don't let the parking lot scare you for there is a Boy Scout function.

Me too. I just happened to be driving down 32 at 3:45 so I stopped in.

Squaregrouper · Jun 25, 2013

I checked it out and left.

Squaregrouper · Jun 25, 2013

smdub said:
Its near impossible to prove, but big rigging is a FELONY! Yes, if you and a friend are at an auction and you agree not to bid against one another, thats illegal. Just be aware! (at LEAST don't put anything in writing (forums/email/etc) and keep your voice down if discussing in public especially at the auction)

Show me the citation on that- with all due respect, I call BS.
The SELLER running up the bidding is a no no, but friends agreeing to not bid against eachother is perfectly legal.

smdub · Jun 26, 2013

squaregrouper said:
Show me the citation on that- with all due respect, I call BS.
The SELLER running up the bidding is a no no, but friends agreeing to not bid against eachother is perfectly legal.

Just google "bid rigging felony" for plenty of info. Its from the Sherman Act of 1890. Here is an example of CT law (first google hit):

"Sec. 53a-161a. Bid rigging: Class D felony. No person, firm, corporation, association or partnership who bids, or intends to bid, for any contract to be awarded by any commission, agency or department of the state or any political subdivision of the state shall induce or attempt to induce any other person, firm, corporation, association or partnership to submit or not to submit a bid or proposal for the purpose of restricting competition. Any person who violates the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a class D felony."

"Friends" aren't excluded. Like I said, its hard for a prosecutor to prove you have intent when you stop bidding against someone you know. Maybe it just reached your upper dollar limit after all. But if you do it just because you know them, its a felony. Note: the above quoted CT law only covers state contracts but I am lead to believe there are similar laws that cover public auctions. IANAL but have bought a lot of stuff at auctions.

Squaregrouper · Jun 26, 2013

smdub said:
Just google "bid rigging felony" for plenty of info. Its from the Sherman Act of 1890. Here is an example of CT law (first google hit):

"Sec. 53a-161a. Bid rigging: Class D felony. No person, firm, corporation, association or partnership who bids, or intends to bid, for any contract to be awarded by any commission, agency or department of the state or any political subdivision of the state shall induce or attempt to induce any other person, firm, corporation, association or partnership to submit or not to submit a bid or proposal for the purpose of restricting competition. Any person who violates the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a class D felony."

"Friends" aren't excluded. Like I said, its hard for a prosecutor to prove you have intent when you stop bidding against someone you know. Maybe it just reached your upper dollar limit after all. But if you do it just because you know them, its a felony. Note: the above quoted CT law only covers state contracts but I am lead to believe there are similar laws that cover public auctions. IANAL but have bought a lot of stuff at auctions.

The important word is "induce". Two friends agreeing to not bid against eachother is not inducing. The 300lb guy cracking his knuckles and clearing his throat every time you bid is inducing. The person offering you $20 to not bid is inducing.
I appreciate you finding a citation on this. Usually people don't back up their claim.

smdub · Jun 26, 2013

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/guidelines/211578.pdf

Does not use the work "induce". That even says "agree to refrain from bidding". While a DOJ .pdf isn't the law, they are describing (hopefully accurately) the law. Again, it is my understanding from reading links to the laws found through my bidding career that friends agreeing not to big against one another is illegal. And again, nearly impossible to prove but Im not going to go around publicly announcing/scheming to commit a felony

http://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/can-friends-commit-bid-rigging/
http://www.harryrinker.com/bidrigging.html

vwluv10338 · Jun 26, 2013

no one saw what that lathe went for did they? Funny, the only thing I wanted in that gun auction was the lathe but I didn't feel like spending a Saturday to get it.

pbharvey · Jun 26, 2013

I wanted that big telescope

Squaregrouper · Jun 26, 2013

smdub said:
http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/guidelines/211578.pdf

Does not use the work "induce". That even says "agree to refrain from bidding". While a DOJ .pdf isn't the law, they are describing (hopefully accurately) the law. Again, it is my understanding from reading links to the laws found through my bidding career that friends agreeing not to big against one another is illegal. And again, nearly impossible to prove but Im not going to go around publicly announcing/scheming to commit a felony

http://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/can-friends-commit-bid-rigging/
http://www.harryrinker.com/bidrigging.html

Thanks for sharing this. IMHO, it is insane that this is a felony and I can't see how it is covered under the Sherman Act, but the law is the law.

enjoi1968 · Jun 26, 2013

Errrrrr. Skid stop. Sherman act doesn't apply to auction venues in that form of 'bidding'

It applies to contract acquisitions or 'bid proposals'. I do a lot of these (small business always looking to grow

) and I have been a victim of a 'bid rig' by a large corp, but what are we to do?

Anywho back on topic. You're GSA and I'm Eurest Foodservices and for the ultimate, we are both umbella'd under Grenada Holdings Group.

So, everybodys friend obamanama's minions are having a convention this upcoming month. We both want to secure the contract with our bid, but we don't want to be either too high or too low on our numbers. But then word comes from GHG, 'your bid will be this'...'$14 Muffins'.

Both bids are the same and there is ability to prove collusion that both parties (or tertiary party controlling both) rigged the bid process to secure approval.

Another way, same scenario, no holdings group. GSA says to Eurest, 'blow your bid sky high and we will give you 15% of the contract fee for nothing.' Collusion in another form.

Bur regardless. It does not apply to bidding in an auction house. You can choose to bid or not for any reason.

Squaregrouper · Jun 27, 2013

enjoi1968 said:
Errrrrr. Skid stop. Sherman act doesn't apply to auction venues in that form of 'bidding'

It applies to contract acquisitions or 'bid proposals'. I do a lot of these (small business always looking to grow ) and I have been a victim of a 'bid rig' by a large corp, but what are we to do?

Anywho back on topic. You're GSA and I'm Eurest Foodservices and for the ultimate, we are both umbella'd under Grenada Holdings Group.

So, everybodys friend obamanama's minions are having a convention this upcoming month. We both want to secure the contract with our bid, but we don't want to be either too high or too low on our numbers. But then word comes from GHG, 'your bid will be this'...'$14 Muffins'.

Both bids are the same and there is ability to prove collusion that both parties (or tertiary party controlling both) rigged the bid process to secure approval.

Another way, same scenario, no holdings group. GSA says to Eurest, 'blow your bid sky high and we will give you 15% of the contract fee for nothing.' Collusion in another form.

Bur regardless. It does not apply to bidding in an auction house. You can choose to bid or not for any reason.

This is what I thought The Sherman Act was about-more specifically trusts and government contracts.

smdub · Jun 27, 2013

enjoi1968 said:
Errrrrr. Skid stop. Sherman act doesn't apply to auction venues in that form of 'bidding'

How so? People/groups have been successfully prosecuted at real estate auctions. Info is on the DOJ page. Those work EXACTLY like equipment auctions (and building/parcels of land are often some of the lots)

Again, IANAL but the info I find seems pretty convincing it does apply. Seems anti-trust is anti-trust no matter how you slice it.

http://rightofthedot.com/2013/04/do...automatically-violate-federal-antitrust-laws/
"DOJ official made it clear that DOJ takes no position as to the legality or illegality of private auctions. As such, private auctions, presumably like any public auction, can violate Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act."

Ammo at Ho.Co. auction this eve (6/25)

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