AGC March Match Registrations NOW OPEN - Steel Challenge, 3 Gun and IDPA

erwos · Mar 2, 2020

ArmedInMd said:
For my penny of opinion: I would prefer to run around on wild stages shooting different types of targets and firing lots of shots. Compared to standing in a box shooting 5 targets but being able to accurately judge my times against others. I may be in the minority but I go primarily for fun, think rec league kid sports. If the trade off for having cool stages and in my opinion a relaxed (but safe) environment is not being able to judge my times against only guys with the exact equipment as me I'm fine with that trade. Maybe that could be that way the weekend shoots are divided it we end up having the support to do Sat/Sun shoots.

The sport you're looking for is USPSA/IPSC and/or multi-gun, not Steel Challenge.

EDIT: this was an overly dismissive response, so let me explain further.

I have a 9yro son, and I would like to get him involved in the shooting sports. He can safely participate with a 10/22 in a traditional SC match where it's standard and deliver. I am not so sure I think he'd be up to doing so when he needs to run and gun. The same could be said for people who are mobility challenged. So while I personally enjoy shooting the run-and-gun stages, they have their drawbacks.

Art3 · Mar 2, 2020

Occam said:
A first rate day for us, too, on Squad 2, under the watchful care of Team K&A. Despite the expected jitters and wrassling with Madness Stage complexity, Mrs Occam has a great first time. Mentioned how nice everyone was, and a great atmosphere.

She's coming back, right? Based on her accuracy, I think it was only the jitters holding her back. After a couple more times shooting under the timer, I suspect she is going to be a force to be reckoned with. :innocent0

Always a pleasure shooting with you :mdpatriot

Art3 · Mar 2, 2020

As to the future of AGC Steel...let's give it some time before we get too carried away. I guess some consideration will have to be made about the direction it is going...but it hasn't even run for a year, yet.

It sounds like there are some volunteers on here to help take things to being sanctioned (or, at least sanctionable). That may be an important step, but it isn't going to please everyone on its own. It is certainly beyond my capacity. (also, I've heard from multiple sources that the pros whine a lot. :puke:

no thanks)
I am eager to work with "Team Just Happy to be Here," and put whatever resources I can into the "Noobs and Outlaws" division...but not enough to run it myself, yet.

Then there's MEGARMS in the middle...trying to balance all of it...plus 3gun.

Somebody's going to have to help take some of the burden off of him...(not it!...I wish I could, but showing up an ROing is about all I can give right now :sad20:

)

Whatever happens...I'll do my best to be just happy to be there

Occam · Mar 2, 2020

Art3 said:
She's coming back, right? Based on her accuracy, I think it was only the jitters holding her back. After a couple more times shooting under the timer, I suspect she is going to be a force to be reckoned with.

Always a pleasure shooting with you

You’re right! She’s a naturally good shot and could feel herself in the zone when things were right. Some more muscle-memory-building dry firing and reload-on-the-clock drills and those timer pressure distractions will fade. Lots of post mortem discussions about the match shooting experience since we wrapped up, and she’s already planning ahead. You and your bride had a super positive impact on the experience for her, so thanks so much!

Stoveman · Mar 2, 2020

MEGARMS said:
(copy of email sent to shooters)

Thank you to all that joined us yesterday. A special thank you to those who help make it happen. There are too many to list individually, but I can tell you it takes 12 ROs (plus another 6 who are in training), 8 guys on the set up crew, a couple photographers, a drone, AGC EVP (who BTW was very impressed yesterday), and of course all of the participants who eagerly helped to keep things moving by resetting targets and tearing down the stages at the end.

For what it is worth, we ran 78 guns through 6 stages (2 of which were S.O.M) in just under 4 hours. It is hard to believe that prior to 10/2019 that we had never held, let alone participated in or for some of us even heard of a steel challenge match. This is progress that EVERYONE should be proud of. I want everyone to know how much we appreciate their participation and cooperation.

After every match, a group of us talk about what we learned, what we can improve upon next time, etc. I also always get a few emails with suggestions. Here are some notes from yesterdays conversations and emails.

1. Bottleneck on stage 5 - the squads were all evenly dispersed (6 x 13 guns each), yet there was a major bottleneck that started to occur and grew as the day progressed (on bay 5). I/we believe that this was due to resetting of the Texas Star which adds at least 30-45 seconds per shooter x 78 shooters= 45 minutes or so). We haven't settled on a fix yet, but it will either be eliminating that prop from the mix or better yet making it the first target to be shot so that resetting of it can be done while the shooter moves down range to finish the stage.

2. Equipment Divisions - as we attract more shooters from outside the area and we learn more about equipment divisions, it is starting to become evident that we have shooters competing in divisions where they are given a clear advantage/disadvantage. This is mainly because of our lack of understanding of the rules, as well as trying to keep things simple. We will work on this and hope to have to make some changes prior to registration opening next time, however this one may take a little more time than that.

It can get sticky when we start trying to discern what guns belong in which division and even more so when trying to enforce the divisions at the RO level. One of our shooters did make a very good point yesterday though. Somebody shooting a full on race gun with a comp and frame mounted optic should not be competing against a guy shooting an M&P with an optic mounted to his slide. That's like a Top Fuel dragster running down the track against stock car. We will work on this one and try to get it right.

3. Space - As the weather gets nicer and we grow in popularity, we fully expect that registration will fill up even quicker than it has been to this point. We have been wait listing and turning shooters away and it is the middle of winter. The goal is really to get as many shooters to participate as are willing/able to do so. We have already expanded to 6 stages and have no more room to do that further. I would like to keep each squad at 13 guns, as that seems to keep the flow moving (we could always increase this if we are able to get #1 above figured out)

Not sure what we will do at this point, if anything for the April match, That said, we will need to do something eventually in an effort to draw as many individual shooters as possible. Possible solutions are

1. Set up on Fridays and run a two day match - half the shooters on Saturday and half on Sunday. This is a long term solution because we would need enough demand as well as another 15 or so volunteers. We aren't even close to this one.

2. Limit all shooters to just 1 gun up until a few days before registration ends, only allowing 2nd guns to be registered at that time if space is available. This has the potential to be a logistical nightmare for the Event Director or whoever is managing Practiscore.

3. Eliminate the 50% discount on 2nd guns. This would allow those who really want to shoot twice to do it, but at the same time dissuade other shooters from registering two guns just because it is cheap to do so.

I know that #3 isn't going to be popular, but to be honest it is the direction we are leaning at this point. Believe me, I hate it myself when fees are used to control the masses. That said, something is going to have to be done and whatever it is it has to be simple to manage from the administrative end of things.

Thanks again to everyone for your support. Look forward to seeing you all next month (or at 3 Gun in two weeks. Still a few slots open)

The bottleneck on stage 5 was because every target had to be re-set, this is a simple one to fix. Put the Texas star, dueling tree, poppers, etc.. at the beginning of the Madness stages and keep those that don't need reset in the middle and ends. Keep the Texas Star, it's way too good not to use.

As far as #3 I think you're on the right track. One of the goals of the action shooting bays was to generate new range badge sales but if a non badge holder is shooting two guns 10 times a year (eventually one or two months will get called due to weather) or just can't make the other two and they shoot two guns that's $300/year. If they buy a range badge at $200 and shoot two guns as a member that would be another $150/yr they are still coming out ahead by not becoming a club member and purchasing a range badge.

gmharle · Mar 2, 2020

As for the fairness of the divisions, more than half of the PP group were outshot by a p365, myself included. It is not about the gun but more about who is behind it. Stop whining about the divisions. When and if it it ever becomes sanctioned then different story. Can't we all just have fun!

GolfR · Mar 2, 2020

There are a lot of good suggestions and good points being made here.

1) Adhering to class rules...there are lots of things that could be pointed out about this. Mag capacity, starting with hammer down, mag base plates, etc. While we all want the competition to be fair, there is a balance with people being able to just come out and shoot with what they have. A concern is that the more stringent you get with rules, the less new shooter (and cross over shooting sport) friendly you become. Perhaps a compromise would be to enforce the rules for the traditional classes but then have a "I don't like rules" class. Maybe that already exists and it's called OPEN :innocent0

2) Sanctioned matches...It will be very hard for AGC be able to host sanctioned SC matches due to the slope of the ground. The rules are very specific about how precise the targets have to be placed.

3) Coaching...As one of the ROs, I would be happy to help a new shooter with coaching if specifically asked to do so by the shooter. We are always going to do this on safety related items. I think that the "no coaching" direction is related to unsolicited coaching. Megarms can correct me if he sees fit.

4) SC format vs run and gun stages...We all know that true SC matches are of the 5 target, 5 run format. More specifically, they are the SAME stage setup every time. I honestly think it would be a tragedy to move to this format. We could do a formal survey but my guess is that people like the mix and match format with change from one event to the next. Personally, I would get bored after a couple events if the stages were the same each match. I also think having some run and gun stages thrown in is a great lead in to 3 gun and keeping the 3 gun crowd coming to these events.

5) Other formats...I think the ideal next format to take on would be a falling steel match. Or maybe just a single stage if it during a SC match to start. It's going to take time to build up the steel inventory to be able to host these but they look like a ton of fun. We would also have to balance the setup time because every target has to be reset between runs.

The bottom line....The SC matches are successful beyond anyone's initial expectations. Continuous improvement is important, but significant change to a format that has worked well to date doesn't make sense.

Stoveman · Mar 2, 2020

Art3 said:
As to the future of AGC Steel...let's give it some time before we get too carried away. I guess some consideration will have to be made about the direction it is going...but it hasn't even run for a year, yet.

It sounds like there are some volunteers on here to help take things to being sanctioned (or, at least sanctionable). That may be an important step, but it isn't going to please everyone on its own. It is certainly beyond my capacity. (also, I've heard from multiple sources that the pros whine a lot. no thanks)
I am eager to work with "Team Just Happy to be Here," and put whatever resources I can into the "Noobs and Outlaws" division...but not enough to run it myself, yet.

Then there's MEGARMS in the middle...trying to balance all of it...plus 3gun. Somebody's going to have to help take some of the burden off of him...(not it!...I wish I could, but showing up an ROing is about all I can give right now )

Whatever happens...I'll do my best to be just happy to be there

Agreed, these matches are maxing out fast because they are a complete blast, well run, safe and although it is a competition the very best shooters are not above helping out the noobs.

Personally I shot two sanctioned matches in IDPA and hated both of them. At the inaugural Potomac Grail in Thurmont the winner was in my squad and was the biggest whiniest crybaby I have ever seen in competitive shooting. He bitched and moaned and questioned the stage designs all freaking day and I couldn't wait for the match to be over.

The other one at Sanners was almost as bad. Zero comraderie between the shooters in a squad. No BSing while others were shooting or while taping up targets, completely sterile, worse than your first day on a new job. No thanks.

For me one of the benefits of these matches is the socialization with other like minded folk and meeting new people who enjoy shooting.

Occam · Mar 2, 2020

Stoveman said:
The bottleneck on stage 5 was because every target had to be re-set, this is a simple one to fix. Put the Texas star, dueling tree, poppers, etc.. at the beginning of the Madness stages and keep those that don't need reset in the middle and ends. Keep the Texas Star, it's way too good not to use.

As far as #3 I think you're on the right track. One of the goals of the action shooting bays was to generate new range badge sales but if a non badge holder is shooting two guns 10 times a year (eventually one or two months will get called due to weather) or just can't make the other two and they shoot two guns that's $300/year. If they buy a range badge at $200 and shoot two guns as a member that would be another $150/yr they are still coming out ahead by not becoming a club member and purchasing a range badge.

Yes on paragraph one. And yes on paragraph two. Dead on.

Occam · Mar 2, 2020

Stoveman said:
For me one of the benefits of these matches is the socialization with other like minded folk and meeting new people who enjoy shooting.

And another yes. The current atmosphere at the AGC outlaw rogue non-sanctioned rebel scum Steel Challenge Kinda matches is just about perfect. Don’t break it!

gmharle · Mar 2, 2020

Occam said:
And another yes. The current atmosphere at the AGC outlaw rogue non-sanctioned rebel scum Steel Challenge Kinda matches is just about perfect. Don’t break it!

Mike1690 · Mar 2, 2020

I had a great time. I hope you decide to leave it as is.

erwos · Mar 3, 2020

gmharle said:
As for the fairness of the divisions, more than half of the PP group were outshot by a p365, myself included. It is not about the gun but more about who is behind it. Stop whining about the divisions. When and if it it ever becomes sanctioned then different story. Can't we all just have fun!

With all due respect, once you start shooting at a certain level of skill, you start understanding your gear and gun does matter. It took me a while to get there, but once you're there... I outshot most of pistol optic with a basically stock Glock 17 with a FF3. Doesn't mean it was fair, and I want fair. I support having a class for people who want to shoot casually and not think about it, but more serious competitors should have the option to compete with people who want to play by the same rules. It burns a little bit when you see that 2 of the 3 guys who beat you were using guns that were in a different division than you (one of them had a big magwell, the other was shooting a race gun).

I'm not demanding a super-competitive atmosphere, but we may as well not post scores if it's not a competition. And if it is a competition, it is not unreasonable to have rules that keep things fair between competitors, which means division rules that acknowledge some guns are in a different class than others.

Also, if there's no intention to use the Steel Challenge rules, let's stop calling it Steel Challenge, because it's not. Just call it Outlaw Steel, which is what it is right now.

boss281 · Mar 3, 2020

There is no reason, in time, that the AGC can't do both formal and outlaw style matches. As Mike has indicated, it needs a cadre of ROs and match leadership. There are a lot of ways to mix it up, all with the same core approach to safety. York Pistol always has an interesting mix of matches that I enjoy (their next one on the 8th is a two gun with these 4 divisions: Pistol / Rifle, Pistol / PCC, PCC only, Pistol only) with nothing over 50 yards, all red dot territory.

Again, it's all about the goals. Given what has been done so far, to call it all a smashing success is an understatement...

MEGARMS · Mar 3, 2020

Whew!!! I didn’t mean to upset anyone. I’m traveling this week and am typing on my phone so keeping this short.

1. I don’t think we will ever have a sanctioned Steel Challenge Match at the AGC, mainly because of the reasons that Brendon stated above. Our facility is not equipped for it. We don’t have 8 bays, and the bays we do have are not on level ground. We probably won’t change the name of the event, but I wouldn’t be opposed to it if others think that is appropriate. I really don’t care what it is called as long as everyone has a good and safe experience.

2. While these are fun matches, we do keep score (which to me is a big part of the fun). Being that we keep score, we are going to do our best to make sure that those who ARE competitive can feel like they are being ranked against others with similar equipment and playing with the same rules. I don’t know what this looks like yet, but we will get there with a little help from some of my friends (many of you). No reason to completely reinvent the wheel a because those with far more knowledge than me/is have already spent a considerable amount of time creating these USPSA/SC divisions. We just need to find a way to dumb it down a bit so that we don’t get so far down in the weeds that we can’t breath. This will be a work in progress, but we will get there in time.

3. We need a USPSA program at the AGC. Not sure what that looks like at this point. I think we could keep Steel Challenge as it is (why mess with a winner), and then create a USPSA 2 Gun match. As always, this requires a lot of volunteerism and expertise, both of which are limited resources. Maybe I will take that project on after we get Steel Challenge on cruise control and handed off to someone else. If there is anyone interested in helping me tackle this 2 gun thing in the future (somebody who knows what they are doing and can drive the train), then lets start talking about it now.

In the meantime, let’s keep having fun doing what we are doing and be patient as we grow. In the short term our focus will be to maximize participation in all our events by enhancing the experience for the majority of our the participants.

See you all soon.

boss281 · Mar 3, 2020

These USPSA type stages could be fun.

Squaregrouper · Mar 3, 2020

Occam said:
And another yes. The current atmosphere at the AGC outlaw rogue non-sanctioned rebel scum Steel Challenge Kinda matches is just about perfect. Don’t break it!

erwos said:
Also, if there's no intention to use the Steel Challenge rules, let's stop calling it Steel Challenge, because it's not. Just call it Outlaw Steel, which is what it is right now.

MEGARMS said:
Whew!!! I didn’t mean to upset anyone. I’m traveling this week and am typing on my phone so keeping this short.

1. I don’t think we will ever have a sanctioned Steel Challenge Match at the AGC, mainly because of the reasons that Brendon stated above. Our facility is not equipped for it. We don’t have 8 bays, and the bays we do have are not on level ground. We probably won’t change the name of the event, but I wouldn’t be opposed to it if others think that is appropriate. I really don’t care what it is called as long as everyone has a good and safe experience.

In the meantime, let’s keep having fun doing what we are doing and be patient as we grow. In the short term our focus will be to maximize participation in all our events by enhancing the experience for the majority of our the participants.

See you all soon.

I second the idea of not calling it "Steel Challenge". It will also stop a lot of people from complaining that we're not adhering to SC rules.

boss281 · Mar 3, 2020

Double seconded. Keep the scoring too. It tells me there are plenty of folks that are better shooters and I need to keep at it. I don't care what hardware they run.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Art3 · Mar 3, 2020

squaregrouper said:
I second the idea of not calling it "Steel Challenge". It will also stop a lot of people from complaining that we're not adhering to SC rules.

boss281 said:
Double seconded. Keep the scoring too. It tells me there are plenty of folks that are better shooters and I need to keep at it. I don't care what hardware they run.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

"AGC Steel?" "Action Steel?" "AGC Action Steel?"

Now...since it's at AGC, making a change like that would probably require several meetings, votes, rule changes, and a fee increase... :rasp:

jjones88 · Mar 3, 2020

MEGARMS said:
Whew!!! I didn’t mean to upset anyone. I’m traveling this week and am typing on my phone so keeping this short.

1. I don’t think we will ever have a sanctioned Steel Challenge Match at the AGC, mainly because of the reasons that Brendon stated above. Our facility is not equipped for it. We don’t have 8 bays, and the bays we do have are not on level ground. We probably won’t change the name of the event, but I wouldn’t be opposed to it if others think that is appropriate. I really don’t care what it is called as long as everyone has a good and safe experience.

2. While these are fun matches, we do keep score (which to me is a big part of the fun). Being that we keep score, we are going to do our best to make sure that those who ARE competitive can feel like they are being ranked against others with similar equipment and playing with the same rules. I don’t know what this looks like yet, but we will get there with a little help from some of my friends (many of you). No reason to completely reinvent the wheel a because those with far more knowledge than me/is have already spent a considerable amount of time creating these USPSA/SC divisions. We just need to find a way to dumb it down a bit so that we don’t get so far down in the weeds that we can’t breath. This will be a work in progress, but we will get there in time.

3. We need a USPSA program at the AGC. Not sure what that looks like at this point. I think we could keep Steel Challenge as it is (why mess with a winner), and then create a USPSA 2 Gun match. As always, this requires a lot of volunteerism and expertise, both of which are limited resources. Maybe I will take that project on after we get Steel Challenge on cruise control and handed off to someone else. If there is anyone interested in helping me tackle this 2 gun thing in the future (somebody who knows what they are doing and can drive the train), then lets start talking about it now.

In the meantime, let’s keep having fun doing what we are doing and be patient as we grow. In the short term our focus will be to maximize participation in all our events by enhancing the experience for the majority of our the participants.

See you all soon.

No idea what USPSA 2 gun is or what it's like, but having something like 2 Gun Action Challenge where physicality + mental challenges are involved is something that I would at least throw my hat in the ring on volunteering to work with you / Paul to see if we have any interest in that style of a match. Then "steel challenge" and "3-gun" can move towards more sanctioned and the 2 Gun or sometimes we could try 3 gun would be less formal?

AGC March Match Registrations NOW OPEN - Steel Challenge, 3 Gun and IDPA

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