Casting for 30-30 and 36.06?

Archeryrob · Feb 8, 2021

Anyone done any with casing and powder coating for these rounds and devolved base loads?

I was looking at the Lee 2-Cavity C309-150-F gas checked bullet mold. They also have a 160 and a 170 but my buddy and I were talking and 150 grains has killed everything we have every shot.

I was wondering abut the hardness of the lead and powder coating with the higher pressures. I tried reading on other sites and many are doing it, but not going into a deep dive on explaining it.

Melnic · Feb 8, 2021

I have the round nose version of that. I did not have much luck but that was ONLY because I really did not know what I was doing (if I even do now) back then.
I have had good luck with the 312-160 in almost anything I have tried it in around 30 cal.
https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-tl312-160-2r.html

It worked well in my 308 rifle, Mosin, 300blackout, and Argentine Mauser.
I powder coated it then sized it appropriate to the rifle.
I have always used a gas check with it though.

I'll look at my notes but I target around 1600fps with it using medium burn rate powders Blue dot for Mosin, H110 for 300BO for example. Blue Dot for Mosin gives risk of double charge and I have implemented 2 check methods for making sure that does not happen.

Now, I cared about accuracy and reliability of cycling and not expansion though.

BTW this mold I used would NOT work for 30-30, just 30-06 with that pointed tip

Archeryrob · Feb 8, 2021

I thought 308 was sized to 309 and isn't 312 a bit big?

I know pointy bullets in a tube magazine is no good. I have no problem if it can't use the same mold and 30.06 used pointed bullet and round nose for 30-30

Melnic · Feb 8, 2021

Archeryrob said:
I thought 308 was sized to 309 and isn't 312 a bit big?

I know pointy bullets in a tube magazine is no good. I have no problem if it can't use the same mold and 30.06 used pointed bullet and round nose for 30-30

It sizes down to 309 and I have not had any problems with it.
Look up that and the 155gr one and there is LOTS of people talking about it.
I got turned onto it here by John when starting Powder coating.
I've seen posts online of people size to .311 before going to .309 but I don't do that and get good plinking accuracy (about 2MOA) John told me to push on the gas check PRIOR to powder coating. That works for me but I do have to look for the few where it comes off when swishing them around. If you care about accuracy, also check that the GC is on fully by looking at the gap between the GC and the lower lube ring gap. If I cared more about accuracy and consistancy in a lever or bolt, I may have preferred to go xlox/alox lube but I do bulk plinking steel with them.

traveller · Feb 8, 2021

Archeryrob said:
I was wondering abut the hardness of the lead and powder coating with the higher pressures. I tried reading on other sites and many are doing it, but not going into a deep dive on explaining it.

3% Antimony is the secret ;-)

John from MD · Feb 8, 2021

For hunting loads, stay around 2200 FPS using 4198 powder. In a sporter barrel, that is about 32 grains. For the 30-30, the best hunting powder is IMR3031. You can get about 2000FPS or so with 28-29 grains.

I can tell you that they will give you cloverleafs at 100 yards from the bench in my guns. One thing about 30-30's. If you have a Winchester 94, you need to slug the bore as they run big.

Archeryrob · Feb 9, 2021

My 30-30 is a Marlin 336A

When using PC'd bullets is it recommend to keep the velocity down around 2,000 fps? I have seem people shooting 223 PC and doing 2500 or better.

I have been using the Hodgdon reloading center for information like this but they don't list cast PC bullets for rifle rounds. Closet thing is round nose lead bullets for the 45 colt. I charted all the data for 30-30 and IMR3031. When I look up 30.06 they don't even suggest 4198 as a solution. 3031 is running at 2670 - 2880 FPS

Are you getting that info on the 4198 and 30.06 from a reloading book, software program or just long acquired knowledge? Also, half to a quarter of all rounds I load will be a hunting round. I only shoot to be comfortable to kill with it.

traveller said:
3% Antimony is the secret ;-)

What if I start with wheel weights? Does that make it less than a 3%?

John from MD · Feb 9, 2021

The Lyman CAST BULLET Reloading Manual has those powders listed. But much of what I have learned is from being a member of the Cast Bullet Association and the Fairfax Rod and Gun Club long long ago.

Archeryrob · Feb 9, 2021

Thanks, I ordered the manual.

John from MD · Feb 9, 2021

Archeryrob said:
Thanks, I ordered the manual.

It will broaden your horizons for sure.

Bolts Rock · Feb 9, 2021

Slug your rifle's throat! You want your bullet to be throat diameter. Milsurp .30-06s tend to like .312 bullets but you may need to neck turn your cases. The Lee C312-155-2R and CTL312-160-2R do VERY well in 1903 and P-17 rifles with Fed210M primers and 16.0-20.0gr 2400.

Those two bullets were designed by C.E. "Ed" Harris back in the early 90s and we shot them for a couple seasons of High Power on the 200 yard reduced course. I still have the single cavity prototype mold for the 155 so when I say they work very well in the 1903 and P-17 rifles you should know that's from the initial testing of the designs in competition.

They're pointy so will not work in a tube fed .30-30.

Archeryrob · Feb 16, 2021

Oh, the more I read on this the more confused I get.

the 30.06 is a Rem 700, so it is not mil spec.
- is the 312 bullets better for this with powder coat?
- This still used a 308 gas check, correct?
- Bullet is gas checked, Powder coated and then run through the 309 sizer?
- 11 - 12 bhn good or quenching after casted and coating? Using for hunting to, so soft as can be used it preferred. This is not covered on most of the posts I read on line.

The Marlin 336 in 30-30
- I was looking at the C309- 150 or 170 flat fronted bullet.
- Shoot this powder coated or Naked? Reference the pic before as the nose is not 309, but 300. I read where this is better lubed than PC'd as then the nose contacted the barrel.
- This guy PC'd the driving bands with a sleeve over the nose of the bulet and cooked them straight up. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?303334-Bare-Nosed-checkless-PC-coated-C309-170-F

I never heard of this slugging the throat. So I fill a casee with lead up to the top of the shoulder, seat a naked bullet on top. Then drive a rod down the barrel and tap to spead the bullet to fill the throat. Is that correct?

Melnic · Feb 16, 2021

Archeryrob,
I had the issue you are looking at with my Krag. The 200gr bullet has a very long nose and the nose sticks into the rifling.
Getting it seated in there and aligned with the rifling sure helped with accuracy.
Powder coated, it would hit the rifling and would not stick in as far. If seated too far out, the PC would grab onto the rifling and either be hard to insert, push in some or get stuck and pull out on removing round w/o shooting it.
Tumble lubed, it went in and out just fine. I had wondered about masking the bullet (lots of effort). We have stuff powder coated at work all the time, they slip these rubber covers over threaded studs to keep the powder coat off them. Wonder if I could find some for .300"
YES, ITS EXTRA WORK, but very interesting.

John from MD · Feb 16, 2021

Archeryrob said:
Oh, the more I read on this the more confused I get.

the 30.06 is a Rem 700, so it is not mil spec.
- is the 312 bullets better for this with powder coat?
- This still used a 308 gas check, correct?
- Bullet is gas checked, Powder coated and then run through the 309 sizer?
- 11 - 12 bhn good or quenching after casted and coating? Using for hunting to, so soft as can be used it preferred. This is not covered on most of the posts I read on line.

The Marlin 336 in 30-30
- I was looking at the C309- 150 or 170 flat fronted bullet.
- Shoot this powder coated or Naked? Reference the pic before as the nose is not 309, but 300. I read where this is better lubed than PC'd as then the nose contacted the barrel.
- This guy PC'd the driving bands with a sleeve over the nose of the bulet and cooked them straight up. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?303334-Bare-Nosed-checkless-PC-coated-C309-170-F

I never heard of this slugging the throat. So I fill a casee with lead up to the top of the shoulder, seat a naked bullet on top. Then drive a rod down the barrel and tap to spead the bullet to fill the throat. Is that correct?

The 30-06 will run pretty much to .308 bore so sizing to .309 is appropriate as is the .308 gas check. If you are powder coating, you can size down several thousandths and not affect the bullet stability. Even if the grease grooves are closed up, it won't matter. Many new bullet molds made for powder coatings look like slugs with no grooves.

Rifles chambered in 30-30 can run from .308 to .312 and then some if they are older. What the guy was probably talking about was a bore riding bullet. The Lyman 311291 is a bore riding bullet and the nose drops at .303 vs .300 for a standard bullet.

Slugging the bore or making a chamber cast are the best way to determine what diameter bullet your rifle will like best.

Go to Brownells website and buy some Cerrosafe casting compound. The Brownells site gives you all the info on how to use it. This would be money well spent.

Archeryrob · Feb 16, 2021

Ok, I am not sure I want to buy this low temperature metal and pure it in the breech. When I buy Remington Core-lokt bullets nothing is sized exactly to my gun. I didn't like the squashing the bullet thing I saw much either.

The questions I had still are not really answered. If I buy the C309-150 I would assume it would be seated to the normal seating grove being the first driving band. Case measured and trimmed if needed. Some things I read, the cast bullets thread, the guy said to not powder coat the front part of the bullet. I assumed I would just powder coat the entire thing.

[EDIT] Watching YT videos and they are just powder coating the entire things and seems to be doing fine.

John from MD · Feb 16, 2021

Archeryrob said:
Ok, I am not sure I want to buy this low temperature metal and pure it in the breech. When I buy Remington Core-lokt bullets nothing is sized exactly to my gun. I didn't like the squashing the bullet thing I saw much either.

The questions I had still are not really answered. If I buy the C309-150 I would assume it would be seated to the normal seating grove being the first driving band. Case measured and trimmed if needed. Some things I read, the cast bullets thread, the guy said to not powder coat the front part of the bullet. I assumed I would just powder coat the entire thing.

[EDIT] Watching YT videos and they are just powder coating the entire things and seems to be doing fine.

Rob,

The only way to insure how your bullets will fit properly is to do a chamber cast. Cerrosafe is the standard metal for this process. It melts at 149 degrees. After it is removed, one hour later it is the exact size of your chamber or bore.

It is important not just to know the bore size but the lead (sounds like leed) of the chamber. Some chambers have little lead and won't accept all shapes of cast bullets. Some have erosion and must have larger bullets in order to obtain any accuracy at all.

If you don't know what your barrel dimensions are, you can waste a lot of time and money and not be happy.

As for powder coating, it can be as hard or as easy as you want to make it. Again, without knowing a barrels dimensions, you have to guess as to whether a bullet will chamber in it. You don't have to powder coat though, just use gas checks, Xlox and keep your velocity down to 1600-1800 FPS and you will be fine.

Melnic · Feb 16, 2021

Here is a thread with a post with a good pic at post #9 on bore riding bullets.
This is what I read when people were explaining it to me and I researched it.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?185134-Bore-rider-boolits-101-needed

look at that pic and then imagine if the bullet went from .300" diameter to say .305" because of the powder coat.
Now imagine the bore has some wear to it and is .306" vs .303"
That is why John is suggesting a chamber cast.

If you don't find out, you would have to seat that bullet much deeper.
Core lokt, the shape is different (Spire point I think its called) the point that bullet gets to .300" is closer to the base than the cast bore riding bullet is.

Archeryrob · Feb 17, 2021

I called my buddy and he told me to make dummy rounds from fired cases from my gun. Keep screwing the seating die and measuring the seat as it pushes it in a bit more and check the fit to the chamber. He used to be in air force rifle team repair shop and loaded all their competition rounds and fixed all the guns. I'll give that a shot first

https://www.nosler.com/blog/news-an...mine-proper-bullet-seating-depth-for-your-gun

Archeryrob · Feb 18, 2021

Maybe I'll try this out once I get get the C309-150 mold can't find it yet and past on the 170. I can heat and fill a hot case for 30-30 and 30.06 with WW lead and then cast a pure lead bullet on top. Tap with a 1/4" rod to tap the bore riding thin end down to fill the chamber.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?356251-Pound-Cast-instructions-(for-rifle-chamber)

I am assuming the front part of that bullet with grab lands right? Will that make extracting it with the bolt difficult?

wgttgw · Feb 18, 2021

Typically I favor a heavier bullet moving slower with cast loads. So I would choose the lee 170 grain. I typically pan lube with one of my homemade lubes or i have dip lubed with liquid alox for cast rifle loads.I have ran several cast loads in rifles to 2500 fps when the the fitment, alloy and lube is right. I size and seat the gas checks on most all my 30 caliber bullets through a Lee 309 sizer that I opened up with a dowel and wet sand cloth to around .310. The .310 size has worked for the handful of 30 calibers I load for.

I use alot of H4895 in cast loads because of it's ability to do well with reduced loads.

Check out from " ingot to target", a gracious free download from its authors Glen Fryxell Robert Applegate. If it's still an option print it and keep the copy handy.

http://www.lasc.us/fryxell_book_contents.htm

Casting for 30-30 and 36.06?

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