Trust Process

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  • Major03

    Ultimate Member
    Looking for some guidance on establishing a trust. I have a draft worked up thanks to a friend who is an attorney. I know I have to have it notarized, but other than that...what needs to happen before I can submit to the ATF for the transfer of a silencer and a lower I intend to create an SBR out of?
     

    Boss94

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 15, 2013
    6,945
    After its notorized you should be good to go. You also need whom ever else is on it to have them notorize it as well. That's all I had to do. Then submit on mine it was like 18 pages with the form 4 . So far picked up 1 with no issues. Good luck !
     

    Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,501
    AA Co
    If you intend to efile, you need to follow a few guidelines, especially with the trust document, as it is usually pretty large.

    Here is a link to an ATF bulletin that is helpful and from that you get the following info...

    https://www.atf.gov/file/11726/download

    Attachment Limitations
    The maximum size of a single upload for an attachment is 3 MB and the total size of the attachments cannot ex-ceed 30 MB (with a maximum number of attachments of 10 attachment for the Forms 1, 2, 5, 9, and 10). Forms 6 and 6A may contain a maximum of 10 line attachments per line item (the total submission cannot exceed 30 MB per submission).

    Instructions NFA Trust Documents:
    We have been advised that, for NFA forms, the size of the trust or corporate documents may exceed the 3 MB lim-it. If you encounter this situation, we suggest that you split the document into 2 or more ‘packages’ (as needed). When the attachments are added, identify the packages as, for example, ‘XXX Trust 1 of 3,’ ‘XXX Trust 2 of 3,’ etc. The trust documents are only to be added in the Electronic Documents function.
    Note: After you submit the application attachments can be added as long as the status is “submitted/in process.” Please note that the addition may cause a duplicate version of the form in the draft folder. Do not delete—see the article on page 11.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    After its notorized you should be good to go. You also need whom ever else is on it to have them notorize it as well. That's all I had to do. Then submit on mine it was like 18 pages with the form 4 . So far picked up 1 with no issues. Good luck !

    Huh? You don't have to have anybody else sign the trust other than the grantor. The grantor is the one making the trust and the one donating to the trust. Neither the trustees nor the beneficiaries need to sign the trust.
     

    Boss94

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 15, 2013
    6,945
    I was told as long as they had signed it before the form 4 was cleared I'd be ok. So I submitted mine with just my signatures and in the following weeks got the others to get there's Noterized to. Had no issues with my form 4.
     

    Boss94

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 15, 2013
    6,945
    On mine the trustees had 1 sheet each that needed signed and Noterized on mine.
     

    Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,501
    AA Co
    On mine the trustees had 1 sheet each that needed signed and Noterized on mine.
    My trust, as well, has an addendum that needs to be signed and notarized for any assigned trustees and must be submitted with my trust docs, as it is referenced in the trust wording. I have no trustees, so I sent them a blank addendum.. hope it works... should know shortly. ;)
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    My trust, as well, has an addendum that needs to be signed and notarized for any assigned trustees and must be submitted with my trust docs, as it is referenced in the trust wording. I have no trustees, so I sent them a blank addendum.. hope it works... should know shortly. ;)

    You have to have at least one trustee, which would normally be you at the beginning and then anybody else you want to have the ability to use the NFA items outside of your presence.

    I guess you can have a form that a trustee needs to sign to acknowledge his/her acceptance of the position.
     

    Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,501
    AA Co
    You have to have at least one trustee, which would normally be you at the beginning and then anybody else you want to have the ability to use the NFA items outside of your presence.

    I guess you can have a form that a trustee needs to sign to acknowledge his/her acceptance of the position.
    Exactly.. I have a addendum (exhibit 1) that allows me to assign a co-trustee and that needs notarizing and I also have an addendum (exhibit 2) whereby the assigned co-trustee must accept the provisions of the trust and his position and that also needs to be notarized (and witnessed by two). I am the grantor and a trustee as noted in the trust, so that is covered in the basic trust doc. Since I have no 'co-trustees', I sent copies of those two exhibits blank just to cover my kiester... lol
     

    Jim12

    Let Freedom Ring
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2013
    33,860
    Probably a basic question for anybody paying close attention:

    Anybody know whether, after the new rule goes into effect, when additional/substitute trustees are added to a trust already in existence before the deadline, do all pre-existing trustees need to submit photos & prints, or are those already named before then grandfathered in? For that matter, if the trust is established before the deadline, are future trustee changes grandfathered in, exempting them from the requirement?
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    Probably a basic question for anybody paying close attention:

    Anybody know whether, after the new rule goes into effect, when additional/substitute trustees are added to a trust already in existence before the deadline, do all pre-existing trustees need to submit photos & prints, or are those already named before then grandfathered in? For that matter, if the trust is established before the deadline, are future trustee changes grandfathered in, exempting them from the requirement?

    The ATF has nothing to say or do at all with adding or removing trustees to and from your trust.

    The ONLY time that the ATF is involved in that at all is when you submit either a Form 1 or a Form 4. At the time when you submit the paperwork, ATF requires that all "responsible persons" on the trust at that point submit photos / fingerprints / etc. Then, if there are no changes, you will not have to re-submit for two years.

    Thus: if you submit a Form 4 on July 20th and you're the only trustee, you're the only one who has to submit. If you then add four more trustees the next week, it's none of ATF's business. If you then later on submit a Form 1 and all those people are still trustees, all of you will have to submit. If you then file another form 4 six months later and all the same people are trustees, no one should have to re-submit.

    Basically, it only matters who is on the trust at the time of submission.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    The ATF has nothing to say or do at all with adding or removing trustees to and from your trust.

    The ONLY time that the ATF is involved in that at all is when you submit either a Form 1 or a Form 4. At the time when you submit the paperwork, ATF requires that all "responsible persons" on the trust at that point submit photos / fingerprints / etc. Then, if there are no changes, you will not have to re-submit for two years.

    Thus: if you submit a Form 4 on July 20th and you're the only trustee, you're the only one who has to submit. If you then add four more trustees the next week, it's none of ATF's business. If you then later on submit a Form 1 and all those people are still trustees, all of you will have to submit. If you then file another form 4 six months later and all the same people are trustees, no one should have to re-submit.

    Basically, it only matters who is on the trust at the time of submission.

    Exactly. There has already been talk out there about modifying NFA trusts with an addendum to remove all trustees except the grantor just before submitting a Form 1 or Form 4 to ATF. Then, after the Form 1 or Form 4 is approved, adding the trustees back to the trust. I doubt I am going to want any more NFA items after this splurge, but if I do I will just make my wife the sole trustee since she has already gone through the fingerprinting process for work. Again, I seriously doubt I am going to want anything else firearm related for quite some time, except for a new Beretta DT-11 and possibly a Benelli Super Vinci. Maybe a Benelli Super Sport too. However, those are way down the line. Too many firearm projects to deal with as it is.
     

    Jim12

    Let Freedom Ring
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2013
    33,860
    Thanks, all. So, to recap and put it another way, even the "grandfathered" trustee(s) who did not need to be photographed/printed prior to the deadline, now would need to submit photo/prints (their first time), IF/WHEN another item is purchased by the Trust, if s/he's still a trustee; and that is triggered only by the filing of Form 1 or Form 4?
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    Thanks, all. So, to recap and put it another way, even the "grandfathered" trustee(s) who did not need to be photographed/printed prior to the deadline, now would need to submit photo/prints (their first time), IF/WHEN another item is purchased by the Trust, if s/he's still a trustee; and that is triggered only by the filing of Form 1 or Form 4?

    That is correct.

    When you file a Form 1 or Form 4, every "responsible person" (as defined by ATF) on the trust must submit. The only exception is if you have made a submission within the past two years and none of the documentation (anything in the trust itself or the list of people) has changed at all.
     

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