MSP Appeals to the Office of Administrative Hearings

PJDiesel · Jan 14, 2019

swinokur said:
It’s all designed to make you give up.

Exactly.

I have a MD Corp and LLC, but the reason I am/was appealing wasn't based on them. It was based on them ignoring my "reason for permit" which was: self defense and all legal purposes.

They know from my initial and 1st renewal apps that I own investment properties and pick up rents from several different individuals and a few local businesses, my restrictions make no mention of this.

Occam · Jan 14, 2019

swinokur said:
It’s all designed to make you give up.

Well the hell with that. Of course I wanted to be able carry for practical self-defense reasons, but a major motivation to go through the onerous process and then through the board was the principle of the thing. And this just makes that even more important. The need (no offense, Ed H et al!) to pay an attorney to exercise a constitutionally protected right is infuriating, but do we have a choice? Letting them shut people down is just rewarding Frosh for his holier than thou posture. What this needs, until there is some sort of relief in court, is well put together social/media documentary coverage, with parallel coverage of individual stories just miles away in PA, VA, and WV. Alas, most of us would personally hate the public scrutiny and noise that would come with publicly documenting all that we have to go through, and of course Frosh knows that, too.

swinokur · Jan 14, 2019

welder516 said:
^^^ This is the most honest single answer ^^^

And yet we’re criticized for calling it a clown show, which is exactly what it is.

But hey, it’s what they do right?

welder516 · Jan 14, 2019

PJDiesel said:
Exactly.

I have a MD Corp and LLC, but the reason I am/was appealing wasn't based on them. It was based on them ignoring my "reason for permit" which was: self defense and all legal purposes.

They know from my initial and 1st renewal apps that I own investment properties and pick up rents from several different individuals and a few local businesses, my restrictions make no mention of this.

They also have ignored my second business as well and still have not included on my permit .
They even lied at HPRB that i gave them no information on that second business , once they seen it on the paper at the hearing they glossed over it .
That was in Oct. 2018 and still it is not included . :mad54:

I have heard outright lies at the hearings and nothing happens to them .

eruby · Jan 14, 2019

welder516 said:
.... and open themselves up to other court proceedings and things being discovered as un-savory and illegal on what they are doing with the permit scheme and G&S with multiple layers after you reach one level they make new levels up ...

Is it illegal, or just unsavory, and flat out mean-spirited? IANAL

swinokur said:
It’s all designed to make you give up.

Ed Zachary

swinokur said:
And yet we’re criticized for calling it a clown show, which is exactly what it is.

Emmett Kelly weeps.

swinokur · Jan 14, 2019

eruby said:
Is it illegal, or just unsavory, and flat out mean-spirited? IANAL

Ed Zachary

Emmett Kelly weeps.

But not the head clown

Oh sorry Col if I offended you!
.
Your infringement of our right offends me!

But it’s what you do!

Schipperke · Jan 14, 2019

shmuel2004 said:
Was at an HPRB hearing last week. I got there early and overheard the troopers talking. They are going to appeal every case to the OAH. They said they were filing all the appeals from the 10/2 hearing this week.

Supposedly one must file within 30 days of receipt of HPRB order. I think OAH will let that slide. An order can be 12/02/18 , but if it's not in the mail until later, and then of course allowances for receipt after post marks, 30 days becomes really hard to pin down. Heck, the law states HPRB shall have a hearing within 90 days after they receive your request. So much for time limits, they are typically suggestions. Probably the only time they really stick is when the court really doesn't want to bother, then they'll use it as an excuse.

When this new scheme was passed I always pondered why many people assumed MSP wouldn't take advantage of it. It may also be a reason MOM's still attend HPRB, as to make sure their new rule is being utilized. Everyone lawyering up for these OAH hearing are astute. I doubt an ALJ is going to buy any COTUS argument by Johnny Sweatpants.

ironpony · Jan 14, 2019

If it is proven, in some way, they plan to appeal ALL HPRB rulings can that be construed as some sort of prejudice? IANAL

Given the fact they are exacting this extreme prejudice in regards to the ccw process, how comfortable are people with a restricted permit Lol. I do not feel safe allowing a young LEO make the decision of wether or not I am within the restrictions, while standing in the cold, left his lunch at home, kids not doing well in school, Krispy Kreme truck burned up etc. etc.. especially given this fact they (LD/Frosh) would definitely haul one in with any discrepancies.
No offense meant guys/Leos , just throwing some humor out there, please continue to do what you feel is “right”.

No comments needed on my second statement, it has been addressed many times.

PJDiesel · Jan 14, 2019

I don't carry, mainly due to vague restrictions. There..... I said it.

swinokur · Jan 14, 2019

ironpony said:
If it is proven, in some way, they plan to appeal ALL HPRB rulings can that be construed as some sort of prejudice? IANAL

Given the fact they are exacting this extreme prejudice in regards to the ccw process, how comfortable are people with a restricted permit Lol. I do not feel safe allowing a young LEO make the decision of wether or not I am within the restrictions, while standing in the cold, left his lunch at home, kids not doing well in school, Krispy Kreme truck burned up etc. etc.. especially given this fact they (LD/Frosh) would definitely haul one in with any discrepancies.
No offense meant guys/Leos , just throwing some humor out there, please continue to do what you feel is “right”.

No comments needed on my second statement, it has been addressed many times.

No, MSP will claim by appealing all, they are providing equal protection and complying with the 14A..

It's what they do.

welder516 · Jan 14, 2019

The MSP-LD is not on the side of facts because they have none and there are none . By meeting the G&S you have qualified and met a certain burden of proof , at the hearings they say they take a business owners word they are working but why have permit holders been arrested ?? .

If they take my word for it then why put any restriction on my permit , i am stating a fact here when i say most times my business life and personal life intersect . This does not happen because i want it to ; it happens because i can never turn it off . I am married to my phone by text and voice calls .

Schipperke · Jan 14, 2019

welder516 said:
The MSP-LD is not on the side of facts because they have none and there are none . By meeting the G&S you have qualified and met a certain burden of proof , at the hearings they say they take a business owners word they are working but why have permit holders been arrested ?? .

If they take my word for it then why put any restriction on my permit , i am stating a fact here when i say most times my business life and personal life intersect . This does not happen because i want it to ; it happens because i can never turn it off . I am married to my phone by text and voice calls .

That's the problem. We're going to find out if they have to answer that. We are a may issue state, and I think people keep forgetting that. May not be fair, but in Maryland it may be legal. What will be interesting is if ALJ rules at the bench. Probably not, then another wait. I have a feeling they will scour Maryland law after hearing(s) before they decide.

Hawkeye · Jan 14, 2019

PJDiesel said:
I don't carry, mainly due to vague restrictions. There..... I said it.

Well, given that it's now a prohibiting offense to do so, and your being charged with that offense is completely at the whim of whatever LEO pulls you over and finds you carrying, I can't say I blame you.

swinokur · Jan 14, 2019

It’s all part of the grand plan

Hawkeye · Jan 14, 2019

Also FWIW, I joined MSRPA last spring specifically to support the Malpasso v Palozzi lawsuit, and will continue to provide monetary support because of that lawsuit.

welder516 · Jan 14, 2019

At the end of the day , my situation is a fly on a horses ass . I am an optimistic sort then can see the good side in all situations , i am on the right side of this issue and will continue to be .

This whole thing may bring (in 5 years) and exit from this state and to somewhere else in this good ol' USA . Just like people leaving the City Of Baltimore because of taxes , crime and run by Dems. that seem to ruin everything they touch . Only so much anyone person can deal with .

I have been a model citizen and paid into a system and this is how they treat us , i am put off by it but they are wrong they can not keep this up for long .

Straightshooter · Jan 14, 2019

Schipperke said:
That's the problem. We're going to find out if they have to answer that. We are a may issue state, and I think people keep forgetting that. May not be fair, but in Maryland it may be legal. What will be interesting is if ALJ rules at the bench. Probably not, then another wait. I have a feeling they will scour Maryland law after hearing(s) before they decide.

Heres an example of personal/business life intersecting.
I refused to rent the house next door to a man with a rotten court record. His son also has a lengthy arrest record. When I notified him that I would not offer the house to him, he called me names that I usually only hear when I stub my toe or hit my head on a tree limb. I initially met him when I noticed him walking out from behind the garage, so I approached him to ask what he was doing. He knows what I look like.

Two months later, he tried to rob the Walmart pharmacy in Shrewsbury PA with a shotgun. The responding PA State Trooper encountered him in between the entry doors, where he attempted to raise the shotgun to shoot the trooper. That got him a bullet in his belly.

I had intended to do our shopping on that day but wifey needed something in a hurry so I went the previous day. Since I was not "conducting business", I was not carrying. Had I gone on that day as planned, I might have encountered the guy unarmed. My face is not easily forgotten, just ask those on the forum who know me. So, I could have been confronted by an armed *******, who I only know from conducting my business, who is likely still pissed at me, and who has reached a point in his mind where he doesn't give a shit about consequences, yet because I was not actively conducting business at the moment, MD will not allow me to carry during the 6.2 miles(6 min, 15sec) to the PA line, where my PA permit is unrestricted.

Theres no doubt in my mind that the shotgun blast to my face would have been deamed to be business related.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

BeoBill · Jan 14, 2019

swinokur said:
It’s all designed to make you give up.

^^^ REALITY! ^^^

BeoBill · Jan 14, 2019

welder516 said:
They also have ignored my second business as well and still have not included on my permit .
They even lied at HPRB that i gave them no information on that second business , once they seen it on the paper at the hearing they glossed over it .
That was in Oct. 2018 and still it is not included .

I have heard outright lies at the hearings and nothing happens to them .

If you can PROVE that they lied under oath, you have a Perjury beef against them (listen to the oath they swear to. It's why I emphasized that point in the after meeting "hallway conversations" in the first place.)

Schipperke · Jan 14, 2019

Has anyone received instructions or can point to instructions how to initiate an appeal of a HPRB decision to OAH?

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