Enclosed Case or an Enclosed Holster???

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  • Merlin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 31, 2009
    3,953
    Carroll County, Maryland
    Hi Group,

    Can anyone tell me what is considered to be, or qualifies as the
    "Enclosed
    Case or an Enclosed Holster"
    that is mentioned in the Maryland transport and carry law -
    Criminal Law §4–203?

    This description seems like a giant gray area. Is a holster with a strap and snap considered OK? How about a range bag? Or the plastic cases with the foam padding inside that has the cheap slide latches on them?

    OR!

    If you get pulled over and you don't have your guns inside of anything short of something that you can lock with a key will you be in violation of the law?
     
    Last edited:

    vette97

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 9, 2008
    1,915
    Carroll County, Maryland
    Enclosed, to me, means no part of the handgun is exposed. I don't see a definition of "enclosed" in MD law. In my opinion, a gun rug with a zipper would be appropriate and most of us have them so that would suffice. A flap-fronted holster would also fully enclose. A range bag would also do. Mine has a separate compartment to put the handgun, to protect it from nicks and scratches.
     

    Merlin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 31, 2009
    3,953
    Carroll County, Maryland
    Enclosed, to me, means no part of the handgun is exposed. I don't see a definition of "enclosed" in MD law. In my opinion, a gun rug with a zipper would be appropriate and most of us have them so that would suffice. A flap-fronted holster would also fully enclose. A range bag would also do. Mine has a separate compartment to put the handgun, to protect it from nicks and scratches.


    Well everything you stated makes perfect sense to me, but have you or do you know anyone who has been pulled over by the police to test what we think is being so?
     

    vette97

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 9, 2008
    1,915
    Carroll County, Maryland
    If stopped for violating traffic law, and asked if you have any weapons in the car, if you are transporting a handgun in accordance with 4-203, you may choose to indicate that you do have it, where it's located and where you're going with it. In the other extreme, you have a right to say nothing, communicate and cooperate only after consulting an attorney and not consent to any searches. The first option is less costly, so I'd personally go with that.
     

    Maverick0313

    Retired and loving it
    Jul 16, 2009
    9,183
    Bridgeville, DE
    If stopped for violating traffic law, and asked if you have any weapons in the car, if you are transporting a handgun in accordance with 4-203, you may choose to indicate that you do have it, where it's located and where you're going with it. In the other extreme, you have a right to say nothing, communicate and cooperate only after consulting an attorney and not consent to any searches. The first option is less costly, so I'd personally go with that.

    +1 for this advice. Keep the LEO at ease and happy....play nice, avoid conflict. :innocent0
     

    Markp

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 22, 2008
    9,392
    Enclosed, to me, means no part of the handgun is exposed. I don't see a definition of "enclosed" in MD law. In my opinion, a gun rug with a zipper would be appropriate and most of us have them so that would suffice. A flap-fronted holster would also fully enclose. A range bag would also do. Mine has a separate compartment to put the handgun, to protect it from nicks and scratches.

    Enclosed to me means that it completely goes around the gun but parts can be exposed.

    However, I am sure the attorneys have fought this one out before.

    Mark
     

    Merlin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 31, 2009
    3,953
    Carroll County, Maryland
    If stopped for violating traffic law, and asked if you have any weapons in the car, if you are transporting a handgun in accordance with 4-203, you may choose to indicate that you do have it, where it's located and where you're going with it. In the other extreme, you have a right to say nothing, communicate and cooperate only after consulting an attorney and not consent to any searches. The first option is less costly, so I'd personally go with that.


    Right, I completely agree with that. What I meant by "test" what we know/think is so, I just meant has anyone had any experiences with any police where they did or did not have any problems.

    ANY TIME I'm pulled over by the police I always respect them and say yes sir and no sir.

    This is just one of thous thing where the law is completely clear cut. I have talked to paople who will tell you the the unloaded gun in the case or holster is not enough. They told me the gun must be in the trunk of the car and the ammo must be up front in the glove box.

    I think their are some fed laws that talk about this, but I think the local police go by Maryland law.
     

    Merlin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 31, 2009
    3,953
    Carroll County, Maryland
    I just bought a gun from a retired sheriff and I asked him this question. He told me that if the gun is in the case, unloaded, and in the back seat out of reach it is OK.

    OK, where in the law does it say it has to be out of reach? But this is what he goes by when he was actively working the streets.
     

    Merlin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 31, 2009
    3,953
    Carroll County, Maryland
    Enclosed to me means that it completely goes around the gun but parts can be exposed.

    However, I am sure the attorneys have fought this one out before.

    Mark


    OK, that's what I think as well. Will that keep us out of jail? Is that what the police go by when you get pulled over?

    When I go to the range I have one range bag. And in the bag my guns will be unloaded. Also in the bag will be the boxes of ammo I plan to shoot when I get to the range. I sit the range bag on the backseat floor of my pickup truck. (no trunk)

    Is this OK? My range bag as zippers.
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    I just bought a gun from a retired sheriff and I asked him this question. He told me that if the gun is in the case, unloaded, and in the back seat out of reach it is OK.

    OK, where in the law does it say it has to be out of reach? But this is what he goes by when he was actively working the streets.
    The law says wear, carry or transport. If you can wear it, then the out of reach theory is dead in the water as I see it. Also, when riding a bicycle, horse, motorcycle or when walking to an informal target practice, where is "out of reach" for both the ammo and handgun?
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    OK, that's what I think as well. Will that keep us out of jail? Is that what the police go by when you get pulled over?

    When I go to the range I have one range bag. And in the bag my guns will be unloaded. Also in the bag will be the boxes of ammo I plan to shoot when I get to the range. I sit the range bag on the backseat floor of my pickup truck. (no trunk)

    Is this OK? My range bag as zippers.
    Read the link I posted before for some info.
     

    Tactical Patriot

    Active Member
    Jan 22, 2010
    206
    I just bought a little handgun zipper case. It's a little Blackhawk Sportster rug, you can add a little zipper lock to it. I bought it for transporting to the range and back to help prevent my handgun getting banged up.

    2020281.jpg


    Here is a question I have.

    If I have a range bag, Inside the range bag is my handgun(unloaded) in its handgun case. Also in my range bag are loaded magazines. Can I keep my handgun and magazines in the same bag for transport inside my trunk? or do I have to have he gun not in the same bag as the loaded magz?

    I'm going to end up calling the MDSP to be clear on this stuff. I can see myself being pulled over now and getting screwed... :lol2:

    It's like, you have to have all these little goofy pistol laws. Yet I can have a rifle or shotgun in my car anytime, wth :(

    Thanks
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    This question was asked of Mark Bowen at the Attorney General's office and his unoffical opinion was that loaded mags not inserted in the handgun when transporting according to 4-203 were not covered by MD law (he found nothing against it).
    When speaking to the MDSP firearms division bring this up and also ask about when on a bicycle or when walking down the street going to an informal target practice where the ammo has to be, ;)
     

    Merlin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 31, 2009
    3,953
    Carroll County, Maryland
    The law says wear, carry or transport. If you can wear it, then the out of reach theory is dead in the water as I see it. Also, when riding a bicycle, horse, motorcycle or when walking to an informal target practice, where is "out of reach" for both the ammo and handgun?


    I assume the "wear, carry" part are for those who are permitted to wear, carry. But if you think about it, why is the "wear" even this law because it talks about the gun needs to be unloaded. Anyone who can wear/carry a gun has the permit with them as well as the gun is loaded.

    Or am I missing something here?
     

    Merlin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 31, 2009
    3,953
    Carroll County, Maryland
    This question was asked of Mark Bowen at the Attorney General's office and his unoffical opinion was that loaded mags not inserted in the handgun when transporting according to 4-203 were not covered by MD law (he found nothing against it).
    When speaking to the MDSP firearms division bring this up and also ask about when on a bicycle or when walking down the street going to an informal target practice where the ammo has to be, ;)


    Well see...that's the problem. His opinion is "unofficial". We all know there's a possibility we may get pulled over by a MSP and that Trooper's "unofficial" opinion may be that what your doing is wrong and arrest you and hall you butt to jail.

    Sure in the long run you may be found innocent, but that's after you drop $5000 on your attorney.
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    I assume the "wear, carry" part are for those who are permitted to wear, carry. But if you think about it, why is the "wear" even this law because it talks about the gun needs to be unloaded. Anyone who can wear/carry a gun has the permit with them as well as the gun is loaded.

    Or am I missing something here?

    Nothing in that part that has to do with permits. The part about permits is in another paragraph. The part I am talking is the part that says you can go to an informal target practice with an unloaded handgun in an enclosed case or enclosed holster. It says plainly "wear",
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    Well see...that's the problem. His opinion is "unofficial". We all know there's a possibility we may get pulled over by a MSP and that Trooper's "unofficial" opinion may be that what your doing is wrong and arrest you and hall you butt to jail.

    Sure in the long run you may be found innocent, but that's after you drop $5000 on your attorney.
    Troopers don't like to be sued. They will call a superior who knows the laws better first, or call the AG's office maybe before committing on a gray area I hope.
    In VA when open carry was completely state preempted a number of advocates carried openly and some were arrested. A few lawsuits later and suddenly all cops in VA learned the law about open carry.
    In MD a cop illegally arrested a guy for carrying a penkife in his pocket. The charges were dropped, the guy sued, the guy won on the issue of the cop not having "qualified immunity" in federal court and suddenly things changed.

    If you want to avoid the issue then go ahead and have no loaded mags at all, but me I refuse to obey a law that does not exist and is only a myth. If a cop arrests me for a law he should have known does not exist, then it is possibly not I who will be out $5,000 ;)
     

    Merlin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 31, 2009
    3,953
    Carroll County, Maryland
    Troopers don't like to be sued. They will call a superior who knows the laws better first, or call the AG's office maybe before committing on a gray area I hope.
    In VA when open carry was completely state preempted a number of advocates carried openly and some were arrested. A few lawsuits later and suddenly all cops in VA learned the law about open carry.
    In MD a cop illegally arrested a guy for carrying a penkife in his pocket. The charges were dropped, the guy sued, the guy won on the issue of the cop not having "qualified immunity" in federal court and suddenly things changed.

    If you want to avoid the issue then go ahead and have no loaded mags at all, but me I refuse to obey a law that does not exist and is only a myth. If a cop arrests me for a law he should have known does not exist, then it is possibly not I who will be out $5,000 ;)


    Well, like anything, I'm sure that 99% of the cops do the right thing. BUT their is always that one cop who may be new of just hates the idea of non cops having guns you need to be concerned with...LOL
     

    Redd Byrd

    Active Member
    Oct 2, 2007
    874
    I was interested to know what the "legal" definition of "enclosed" was. The fifth edition of Black's Law Dictionary states:

    Under "Enclose. See Inclose" (there is no listing for enclosed)

    Under "Inclose. To surround; to encompass; to bound; fence, or hem in, on all sides. To shut up."


    Webster's Collegiate says:

    Under "Enclose 1a (1): to close in (2): to fence off for individual use B: to hold in; 2: to include along with something else in a parcel or envelope."


    just my 2c :D
     

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